From udo-edelgard at freenet.de  Sun Feb  1 03:28:53 2009
From: udo-edelgard at freenet.de (Edelgard Strobel)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 12:28:53 +0100
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Rozyszcze death record 1879 #412a
References: <49836613.4010502@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <041E6C7848F3484BB2372E6E3762C156@UdosXPhome>

Hello Stefan,

maybe it is

Dobuzek
wies
309 os?b
woj. lubelskie
pow. tomaszowski
gmina Laszcz?w

south eastern of Lublin.
http://mapa.szukacz.pl/

Dubicze (Losice) can also be a possibility, because it is not far away from 
Wegrow. Why do you mean that it doesn't fit?

Gr??e

Edelgard

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <duesterhoeft at gmx.de>
To: <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 9:41 PM
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Rozyszcze death record 1879 #412a


> Hello,
>
but looking at
> the file (#127 of 138) at search.labs.familysearch.org it reads more
> like "Dobutesch". At least it can't be Dubitsch near Lutsk, because
> Michael was born about 1822 and lived near Wegrow in the early 1860s and
....and Dubicze (Losice) but none convinced
me, because these either don't match up Michael's migration
(Wengrow-Lublin-Volhynia) or the spelling doesn't seem to fit well enough.



Ich benutze BullGuard um meinen Rechner sauber zu halten.
BullGuard kostenlos ausprobieren: www.bullguard.com



From duesterhoeft at gmx.de  Sun Feb  1 03:46:05 2009
From: duesterhoeft at gmx.de (duesterhoeft@gmx.de)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 12:46:05 +0100
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Rozyszcze death record 1879 #412a
In-Reply-To: <041E6C7848F3484BB2372E6E3762C156@UdosXPhome>
References: <49836613.4010502@gmx.de>
	<041E6C7848F3484BB2372E6E3762C156@UdosXPhome>
Message-ID: <49858B7D.7030105@gmx.de>

Edelgard Strobel schrieb am 01.02.2009 12:28:

> Dubicze (Losice) can also be a possibility, because it is not far away from 
> Wegrow. Why do you mean that it doesn't fit?

Hi Edelgard,

that's because it is too far southeast (~70 km) of the place where he
lived near Wegrow.

Actually, nothing fits. Richard has sent me the original record in the
meantime and it says "unbekannt" (unknown), not "Dubitsch".

Thanks for the effort to help,
Stefan


From betner at juno.com  Sun Feb  1 13:37:17 2009
From: betner at juno.com (betner@juno.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 15:37:17 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Surnames: Kerth, Neumann, Nehring, Hein
Message-ID: <20090201.153718.2716.6.Betner@juno.com>

Anna Caroline Kerth (25 years), daughter of Christoph Kerth, married
August 18, 1841 in Witkowo Lutheran Church in Witkowo, Kreis Witkowo,
Posen, Preussen (Germany), married Johann Neumann (22 years), son of
Johann Neumann from Starvizcyner in Poland.  I would like to know more
family information predating this.  Can anyone help me on how to locate
more information from this area?  

Also, trying to find more information on Wilhelmine Nehring, married to
Gottfried Neumann.  I found two children, Emilie, born in 1874 in
Clementinow by Petrikau next to Kalisch W. P. but she died in 1876.  A
second child, Wilhelmine, was born in 1876 in Ostroima but died in 1878
in Heimtal.  I found a child "Pauline" born in 1879 to Gottfried in
Sitschinek but the mother Wilhelmine was listed with no surname and
wonder if this was his wife?  I was not able to locate a death record for
Wilhelmine, the wife, nor child Wilhelmine.  After her death, Gottfried
married Paulina Hein in 1881 and she died in Sapust in the same year. 
Any help would be appreciated.  Betner at juno.com
____________________________________________________________
Easy-to-use, advanced features, flexible phone systems.  Click here for more info.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw34S6WOjCXZYibvrMWUFZBgRxB5XVPvIkOMKXqGuVwMaXeyb/


From robinquilter at gmail.com  Sun Feb  1 15:52:18 2009
From: robinquilter at gmail.com (Robin Grube)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 15:52:18 -0800
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Village names from Kiev Parish
Message-ID: <d61d61810902011552t6c347e40tad41e8b196611df1@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all- I notice others of you are using the
search.labs.familysearch.org  site. Jerry Frank recommended this to me, and
I am so happy to report SUCCESS from the Kiev parish. Although I didn't find
my greatgrandmother, I found her siblings, offspring of Christian JUST and
wife, Wilhelmina HERRMANN. Now come my questions.
1. How far west do you think the Kiev parish covered? Warsaw? Lodz?
2. Which Neudorf location would be the one mentioned in these records? By
the Bug river?
I would like to hear if anyone has used these records and can verify their
own villages by name and location. Thanks. Robin Grube


From cmduff at redwing.net  Sun Feb  1 20:15:28 2009
From: cmduff at redwing.net (Carol Duff)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 22:15:28 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Duesterhoeft
Message-ID: 7e8138de45cf297286cef9c6abe479ae

Stefan
I suggest our expert German readers got to 
http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=3;c=1469151;w=4651
If that asks you for choices it is Rozyszcze 1879, Frame 127, #412
This will give them an opportunity to see the original record.   I hope 
for success. Carol


From FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca  Mon Feb  2 04:45:52 2009
From: FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 05:45:52 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Village names from Kiev Parish
In-Reply-To: <d61d61810902011552t6c347e40tad41e8b196611df1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d61d61810902011552t6c347e40tad41e8b196611df1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4986EB00.4070702@shaw.ca>

The western boundary of Kiev Parish is not far from the city - only 
about 25-30 km or so.  You then have the Radomyschl Parish (an adjunct 
to Kiev which goes another 70 km or so, almost to Zhitomir.  And then 
you have the Volhynian parishes extending hundreds of km to the west 
before you get to the Bug River.  So it does not come anywhere even 
close to Neudorf on the Bug or to Warsaw or Lodz.



Jerry Frank
Calgary, AB

Robin Grube wrote:
> Hello all- I notice others of you are using the
> search.labs.familysearch.org  site. Jerry Frank recommended this to me, and
> I am so happy to report SUCCESS from the Kiev parish. Although I didn't find
> my greatgrandmother, I found her siblings, offspring of Christian JUST and
> wife, Wilhelmina HERRMANN. Now come my questions.
> 1. How far west do you think the Kiev parish covered? Warsaw? Lodz?
> 2. Which Neudorf location would be the one mentioned in these records? By
> the Bug river?
> I would like to hear if anyone has used these records and can verify their
> own villages by name and location. Thanks. Robin Grube
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
> 


From duesterhoeft at gmx.de  Mon Feb  2 07:29:04 2009
From: duesterhoeft at gmx.de (duesterhoeft@gmx.de)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 16:29:04 +0100
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Rozyszcze death record 1879 #412a
In-Reply-To: <E9829D72850B44A28DF28DDE9B0FC2FC@margaret46066b>
References: <49836613.4010502@gmx.de>
	<845E76E6698C482D9DDA4E6F29286C35@RichardPC>
	<E9829D72850B44A28DF28DDE9B0FC2FC@margaret46066b>
Message-ID: <49871140.2040703@gmx.de>

marlo schrieb am 30.01.2009 23:01:

> My husbands parents were in Volhynia 1878-1888 and one daughter was 
> born in Alt Dubiszcze and now it is just Dubiszcze in Rozyszcze. 
> Could this be area your looking for.

Hi Margaret,

this 'Alt Dubiszcze' is what I meant by 'Dubitsch near Lutsk'. I
considered it very unlikely, because Michael lived in a whole other
region before. As you may have read in my other posting, the problem is
more or less solved now as it doesn't really say 'Dubitsch' in the
original record. The birth location is 'unknown'.

Sorry for not answering earlier, but GMX had put your mail into a
'possibly spam' folder which I checked just recently.

Stefan



From duesterhoeft at gmx.de  Mon Feb  2 07:30:26 2009
From: duesterhoeft at gmx.de (duesterhoeft@gmx.de)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 16:30:26 +0100
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Duesterhoeft
References: 7e8138de45cf297286cef9c6abe479ae
Message-ID: <49871192.8040509@gmx.de>

Carol Duff schrieb am 02.02.2009 05:15:

> I suggest our expert German readers got to 
> http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=3;c=1469151;w=4651

Hi Carol,

thanks for the direct link. Unfortunately I won't help in this case,
because the answer isn't in the duplicates but in the original (FHL Film
2380031): the birth location doesn't read 'Dubtisch' but 'unbekannt'
(unknown).

Stefan


From cmduff at redwing.net  Mon Feb  2 07:46:05 2009
From: cmduff at redwing.net (Carol Duff)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 09:46:05 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] film vs duplicates
Message-ID: 919d84c858f509222fc9db239d08f11d

Hi Stefan, It is good to know thins."isn't in the duplicates but in the original (FHL Film 2380031): the birth location" So even if I have found imformation in these records, there may be more in the films. Carol



From ra_stein at telus.net  Mon Feb  2 08:13:10 2009
From: ra_stein at telus.net (Richard Stein)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 09:13:10 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] film vs duplicates
In-Reply-To: <20090202154548.IIMQ4202.priv-edmwes50.telusplanet.net@priv-edmwaa14.telusplanet.net>
References: <20090202154548.IIMQ4202.priv-edmwes50.telusplanet.net@priv-edmwaa14.telusplanet.net>
Message-ID: <FAAB68E5838B46218F8A98C13642F35C@RichardPC>

Carol and others with an interest in Rozyszcze parish,

I am familiar with both the St. Petersburg films and the series 23800xy 
films and can comment on the differences.

The St. Petersburg films cover the whole of Volhynia (parishes Zhitomir as 
early as 1836, Rozyszcze from its founding in 1862, and Heimtal from its 
founding in 1870) until the end of 1885.  There are missing years, 
especially in Zhitomir before 1860.  For Rozyszce which is of interest here, 
the years 1865, 1871, and 1884 are missing.  The St. Petersburg films have 
been indexed (Odessa site) and also scanned (LDS pilot site).

The 23800xy films are from the AGAD archive in Warsaw and cover only 
Rozyszcze parish from 1862 to 1895 (and to 1899 for births).  Possibly these 
are from the original parish register books.  Generally, the birth and death 
records of the St. Petersburg copy are the same as in the 23800xy films, 
with some errors as we have seen in Stefan's case.  However, the St. 
Petersburg marriage record is only an index with names of groom and bride 
and marriage date.  The 23800xy films give the full marriage record with 
ages, birthplaces, parents' names (or first spouse's name in the case of a 
widow or widower).  Finally, they contain the missing years of the St. 
Petersburg copy.

The 23800xy films also contain records from Wladimir-Wolynski parish from 
its founding in 1891.  Note also that the language changes to Russian 
Cyrillic starting in 1892 for both Rozsyzcze and Wladimir Wolynski.  There 
is also an index film 2380024 and a film of confirmations.

SGGEE has started a project to add data from the 23800xy films to its 
version of the St. Petersburg film index.  Announcements will be made as the 
data is added.

Dick Stein

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carol Duff" <cmduff at redwing.net>
To: <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:46 AM
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] film vs duplicates


>
> Hi Stefan, It is good to know thins."isn't in the duplicates but in the 
> original (FHL Film 2380031): the birth location" So even if I have found 
> imformation in these records, there may be more in the films. Carol
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
> 



From iabram at sbcglobal.net  Mon Feb  2 09:33:22 2009
From: iabram at sbcglobal.net (Ingrid Abram)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 09:33:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] ANA-BAPTIST?
Message-ID: <386425.30853.qm@web180013.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

My late father-in-law's father of Zarki, Volhynia, was an elder in a Protestant religion and he? held religious services in his home.? Time period about 1880-1900.?I was told they were not Lutherans.? Would anyone know if it could be the Ana-Baptist faith?
?
Any suggestions?

From GHBoehm at ish.de  Mon Feb  2 09:58:11 2009
From: GHBoehm at ish.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=FCnther_B=F6hm?=)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 18:58:11 +0100
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] ANA-BAPTIST?
In-Reply-To: <386425.30853.qm@web180013.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <386425.30853.qm@web180013.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49873433.5080300@ish.de>

Ingrid Abram schrieb:
> My late father-in-law's father of Zarki, Volhynia, was an elder in a Protestant religion and he  held religious services in his home.  Time period about 1880-1900. I was told they were not Lutherans.  Would anyone know if it could be the Ana-Baptist faith?
>  
> Any suggestions?

Hello Ingrid,
look for Hutterites ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutterite ),
Mennonites ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mennonites ) and Amish (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish ). They are the surviving factions of
anabaptism in the USA and Canada.

G?nther



From FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca  Mon Feb  2 10:18:29 2009
From: FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:18:29 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] ANA-BAPTIST?
In-Reply-To: <386425.30853.qm@web180013.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <386425.30853.qm@web180013.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <d00293a126bde.4986d685@shaw.ca>

Ingrid,

Are you suggesting Anabaptist for a particular reason?? Zarki is a just a few km north of Zaturcy and I'm not aware of any other Protestant based religions in the area besides Lutheran.? 

As a Lutheran, he could have been a Kantor, holding services in his home.? The other known Protestant religions in Volhynia were Baptist and Moravian Brethren.? Mennonites (Anabaptist) were also there but I don't think in this region.? Church of God was also in Volhynia but I think they started up there after WW I, (certainly after 1900).


Jerry



----- Original Message -----
From: Ingrid Abram <iabram at sbcglobal.net>
Date: Monday, February 2, 2009 10:36 am
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] ANA-BAPTIST?
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org

> My late father-in-law's father of Zarki, Volhynia, was an elder 
> in a Protestant religion and he? held religious services in his 
> home.? Time period about 1880-1900.?I was told they were not 
> Lutherans.? Would anyone know if it could be the Ana-Baptist faith?
> ?
> Any suggestions?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
> 


From cmduff at redwing.net  Mon Feb  2 10:57:40 2009
From: cmduff at redwing.net (Carol Duff)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 12:57:40 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] "elder"
Message-ID: e1c1a836a945d8be101a385af782a596

Ingrid
    Elder is a term used in the Evangelisch church It is similar to 
Methodist and Presbyterian in this country. I am an "elder" in the 
Presbyterian church here. Often Evangelisch and Lutherans used the same 
church building in some locations.Carol


From thejoneses at shaw.ca  Mon Feb  2 11:41:51 2009
From: thejoneses at shaw.ca (Carol Jones)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 13:41:51 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] film vs duplicates
References: <20090202154548.IIMQ4202.priv-edmwes50.telusplanet.net@priv-edmwaa14.telusplanet.net>
	<FAAB68E5838B46218F8A98C13642F35C@RichardPC>
Message-ID: <07A14EEAC79A4246B532215ADCA444DF@GENE>

Dick, thanks for your explanation on the Rozy and St Pete films.  You 
mention that St Pete films before 1860 are missing, and that the missing 
years of the St Pete films can be found in the Rozy 23800xy films.  If the 
Rozy films don't start until 1862, are you referring to other than pre-1860 
St Pete missing films?

Carol Jones


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Stein" <ra_stein at telus.net>
To: "Carol Duff" <cmduff at redwing.net>; 
<ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] film vs duplicates


> Carol and others with an interest in Rozyszcze parish,
>
> I am familiar with both the St. Petersburg films and the series 23800xy
> films and can comment on the differences.
>
> The St. Petersburg films cover the whole of Volhynia (parishes Zhitomir as
> early as 1836, Rozyszcze from its founding in 1862, and Heimtal from its
> founding in 1870) until the end of 1885.  There are missing years,
> especially in Zhitomir before 1860.  For Rozyszce which is of interest 
> here,
> the years 1865, 1871, and 1884 are missing.  The St. Petersburg films have
> been indexed (Odessa site) and also scanned (LDS pilot site).
>
> The 23800xy films are from the AGAD archive in Warsaw and cover only
> Rozyszcze parish from 1862 to 1895 (and to 1899 for births).  Possibly 
> these
> are from the original parish register books.  Generally, the birth and 
> death
> records of the St. Petersburg copy are the same as in the 23800xy films,
> with some errors as we have seen in Stefan's case.  However, the St.
> Petersburg marriage record is only an index with names of groom and bride
> and marriage date.  The 23800xy films give the full marriage record with
> ages, birthplaces, parents' names (or first spouse's name in the case of a
> widow or widower).  Finally, they contain the missing years of the St.
> Petersburg copy.
>
> The 23800xy films also contain records from Wladimir-Wolynski parish from
> its founding in 1891.  Note also that the language changes to Russian
> Cyrillic starting in 1892 for both Rozsyzcze and Wladimir Wolynski.  There
> is also an index film 2380024 and a film of confirmations.
>
> SGGEE has started a project to add data from the 23800xy films to its
> version of the St. Petersburg film index.  Announcements will be made as 
> the
> data is added.
>
> Dick Stein
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Carol Duff" <cmduff at redwing.net>
> To: <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:46 AM
> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] film vs duplicates
>
>
>>
>> Hi Stefan, It is good to know thins."isn't in the duplicates but in the
>> original (FHL Film 2380031): the birth location" So even if I have found
>> imformation in these records, there may be more in the films. Carol
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
>> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
>> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv 



From FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca  Mon Feb  2 12:28:01 2009
From: FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 13:28:01 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] "elder"
In-Reply-To: <e1c1a836a945d8be101a385af782a596@prod.shaw.ca>
References: <e1c1a836a945d8be101a385af782a596@prod.shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <cfa6d36026bfb.4986f4e1@shaw.ca>

Carol,

Actually, in 19th century Europe (and still in some regions today), Evangelisch = Lutheran.? The term "elder" is used in the Lutheran Church I attend for a particular category of church leader so it is not exclusive to one denomination or another.? But even that probably has different context than a 19th century German language church, whether in a formal building or home based.? It may even have different context than Ingrid's use of the term.


Jerry



----- Original Message -----
From: Carol Duff <cmduff at redwing.net>
Date: Monday, February 2, 2009 11:58 am
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] "elder"
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org

> Ingrid
> ??? Elder is a term used in the Evangelisch 
> church It is similar to 
> Methodist and Presbyterian in this country. I am an "elder" in 
> the 
> Presbyterian church here. Often Evangelisch and Lutherans used 
> the same 
> church building in some locations.Carol
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
> 


From ceo at ametric.com  Mon Feb  2 12:49:37 2009
From: ceo at ametric.com (John Bettger)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 15:49:37 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] "elder"
In-Reply-To: <cfa6d36026bfb.4986f4e1@shaw.ca>
References: <e1c1a836a945d8be101a385af782a596@prod.shaw.ca>
	<cfa6d36026bfb.4986f4e1@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <AEE43B406990764EB823107FB46D447C0162668BF0F3@Server.ametric.com>

Actually I have found in northern Germany if you say Lutheran Church they will not know what you are talking about. I believe, today, Germans call it Evangelic Kirch.

Best Regards
John Leon Bettger
email address  ceo at ametric.com

Researching Waterloo South Russia (Stavki Ukraine)
Odessa (city) South Russia (Odessa Ukraine) at 67 Ekaterininskaya Square (at the top of Potemkin Steps)
Slowik (near Lodz) Koenigreich Poland/Prussia
Gruenstadt Bavaria (Worms Germany)
Neubrandenburg, Mecklenburg-Strelitz Prussia/Germany
NAMES: Bettger, Boettcher, Huhn, Schindler









-----Original Message-----
From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Frank
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 3:28 PM
To: Carol Duff
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] "elder"

Carol,

Actually, in 19th century Europe (and still in some regions today), Evangelisch = Lutheran.  The term "elder" is used in the Lutheran Church I attend for a particular category of church leader so it is not exclusive to one denomination or another.  But even that probably has different context than a 19th century German language church, whether in a formal building or home based.  It may even have different context than Ingrid's use of the term.


Jerry



----- Original Message -----
From: Carol Duff <cmduff at redwing.net>
Date: Monday, February 2, 2009 11:58 am
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] "elder"
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org

> Ingrid
>     Elder is a term used in the Evangelisch
> church It is similar to
> Methodist and Presbyterian in this country. I am an "elder" in
> the
> Presbyterian church here. Often Evangelisch and Lutherans used
> the same
> church building in some locations.Carol
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
>

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv




From cmduff at redwing.net  Mon Feb  2 15:18:16 2009
From: cmduff at redwing.net (Carol Duff)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 17:18:16 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Evangelisch=reformed
Message-ID: 5b291829c6f562aa26b34daec2cd23c1

My family story is from Hesse, where I have found in a church book a 
notation that a Lutheran pastor refused to baptize the son of an 
ancestor, until that ancestor threatened to take him to his home 
community for baptism. That man was working in Saxony at that time, and 
Hesse was reformed. The Lutheran pastor probably wanted to convert him. 
This was in the early 1800's.  The pastor of the home church explained 
it to me, that they were not Lutheran but Reformed. Carol


From ceo at ametric.com  Mon Feb  2 13:28:26 2009
From: ceo at ametric.com (John Bettger)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 16:28:26 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] "elder"
In-Reply-To: <AEE43B406990764EB823107FB46D447C0162668BF0F3@Server.ametric.com>
References: <e1c1a836a945d8be101a385af782a596@prod.shaw.ca>
	<cfa6d36026bfb.4986f4e1@shaw.ca>
	<AEE43B406990764EB823107FB46D447C0162668BF0F3@Server.ametric.com>
Message-ID: <AEE43B406990764EB823107FB46D447C0162668BF0F6@Server.ametric.com>

My wife, who is Austrian, corrected me. There is a Lutheran Church in Germany but rare. Most are Evangelisch which is a different form of Lutheranism. Being Austrian she is of course Catholic so a German could possibly have a different read.

Best Regards
John Leon Bettger
email address  ceo at ametric.com

Researching Waterloo South Russia (Stavki Ukraine)
Odessa (city) South Russia (Odessa Ukraine) at 67 Ekaterininskaya Square (at the top of Potemkin Steps)
Slowik (near Lodz) Koenigreich Poland/Prussia
Gruenstadt Bavaria (Worms Germany)
Neubrandenburg, Mecklenburg-Strelitz Prussia/Germany
NAMES: Bettger, Boettcher, Huhn, Schindler









-----Original Message-----
From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of John Bettger
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 3:50 PM
To: Jerry Frank; Carol Duff
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] "elder"

Actually I have found in northern Germany if you say Lutheran Church they will not know what you are talking about. I believe, today, Germans call it Evangelic Kirsch.

Best Regards
John Leon Bettger
email address  ceo at ametric.com

Researching Waterloo South Russia (Stavki Ukraine)
Odessa (city) South Russia (Odessa Ukraine) at 67 Ekaterininskaya Square (at the top of Potemkin Steps)
Slowik (near Lodz) Koenigreich Poland/Prussia
Gruenstadt Bavaria (Worms Germany)
Neubrandenburg, Mecklenburg-Strelitz Prussia/Germany
NAMES: Bettger, Boettcher, Huhn, Schindler









-----Original Message-----
From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Frank
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 3:28 PM
To: Carol Duff
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] "elder"

Carol,

Actually, in 19th century Europe (and still in some regions today), Evangelisch = Lutheran.  The term "elder" is used in the Lutheran Church I attend for a particular category of church leader so it is not exclusive to one denomination or another.  But even that probably has different context than a 19th century German language church, whether in a formal building or home based.  It may even have different context than Ingrid's use of the term.


Jerry



----- Original Message -----
From: Carol Duff <cmduff at redwing.net>
Date: Monday, February 2, 2009 11:58 am
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] "elder"
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org

> Ingrid
>     Elder is a term used in the Evangelisch
> church It is similar to
> Methodist and Presbyterian in this country. I am an "elder" in
> the
> Presbyterian church here. Often Evangelisch and Lutherans used
> the same
> church building in some locations.Carol
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
>

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv



_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv




From ra_stein at telus.net  Mon Feb  2 16:58:46 2009
From: ra_stein at telus.net (Richard Stein)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 17:58:46 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] film vs duplicates
In-Reply-To: <07A14EEAC79A4246B532215ADCA444DF@GENE>
References: <20090202154548.IIMQ4202.priv-edmwes50.telusplanet.net@priv-edmwaa14.telusplanet.net><FAAB68E5838B46218F8A98C13642F35C@RichardPC>
	<07A14EEAC79A4246B532215ADCA444DF@GENE>
Message-ID: <F7B8791243A7442485AF9E4373BC4DE7@RichardPC>

Carol,
While the St. Pete's films cover all of Volhynia starting in 1836 and ending 
in 1885, the 23800xy series is ONLY for Rozyszcze parish from its founding 
in 1862 and ending in 1895 or 1899.  Before 1862, there was only one parish, 
Zhitomir parish, in Volhynia.  Rozyszcze parish was carved out of Zhitomir 
parish in 1862, and then Heimtal was carved out of the reduced Zhitomir 
parish in 1870.  Pre-1862 records from the area later included Rozyszcze 
parish should be in the St. Petersburg films, if they aren't from the years 
missing in the St. Petersburg films.  Missing years Zhitomir parish: 
1837-1842, 1844, 1848, 1849, 1851, 1852, 1854, 1856, 1884;  Rozyszcze 
parish: 1865, 1871, 1884;  Heimtal parish: 1871, 1873, 1874, 1884.

Dick

--- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carol Jones" <thejoneses at shaw.ca>
To: "Richard Stein" <ra_stein at telus.net>; "Carol Duff" <cmduff at redwing.net>; 
<ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] film vs duplicates


>
> Dick, thanks for your explanation on the Rozy and St Pete films.  You
> mention that St Pete films before 1860 are missing, and that the missing
> years of the St Pete films can be found in the Rozy 23800xy films.  If the
> Rozy films don't start until 1862, are you referring to other than 
> pre-1860
> St Pete missing films?
>
> Carol Jones
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Richard Stein" <ra_stein at telus.net>
> To: "Carol Duff" <cmduff at redwing.net>;
> <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 10:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] film vs duplicates
>
>
>> Carol and others with an interest in Rozyszcze parish,
>>
>> I am familiar with both the St. Petersburg films and the series 23800xy
>> films and can comment on the differences.
>>
>> The St. Petersburg films cover the whole of Volhynia (parishes Zhitomir 
>> as
>> early as 1836, Rozyszcze from its founding in 1862, and Heimtal from its
>> founding in 1870) until the end of 1885.  There are missing years,
>> especially in Zhitomir before 1860.  For Rozyszce which is of interest
>> here,
>> the years 1865, 1871, and 1884 are missing.  The St. Petersburg films 
>> have
>> been indexed (Odessa site) and also scanned (LDS pilot site).
>>
>> The 23800xy films are from the AGAD archive in Warsaw and cover only
>> Rozyszcze parish from 1862 to 1895 (and to 1899 for births).  Possibly
>> these
>> are from the original parish register books.  Generally, the birth and
>> death
>> records of the St. Petersburg copy are the same as in the 23800xy films,
>> with some errors as we have seen in Stefan's case.  However, the St.
>> Petersburg marriage record is only an index with names of groom and bride
>> and marriage date.  The 23800xy films give the full marriage record with
>> ages, birthplaces, parents' names (or first spouse's name in the case of 
>> a
>> widow or widower).  Finally, they contain the missing years of the St.
>> Petersburg copy.
>>
>> The 23800xy films also contain records from Wladimir-Wolynski parish from
>> its founding in 1891.  Note also that the language changes to Russian
>> Cyrillic starting in 1892 for both Rozsyzcze and Wladimir Wolynski. 
>> There
>> is also an index film 2380024 and a film of confirmations.
>>
>> SGGEE has started a project to add data from the 23800xy films to its
>> version of the St. Petersburg film index.  Announcements will be made as
>> the
>> data is added.
>>
>> Dick Stein
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Carol Duff" <cmduff at redwing.net>
>> To: <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
>> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:46 AM
>> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] film vs duplicates
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Hi Stefan, It is good to know thins."isn't in the duplicates but in the
>>> original (FHL Film 2380031): the birth location" So even if I have found
>>> imformation in these records, there may be more in the films. Carol
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
>>> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
>>> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
>> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
>> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
> 



From FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca  Mon Feb  2 16:58:35 2009
From: FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 17:58:35 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Evangelisch=reformed
In-Reply-To: <5b291829c6f562aa26b34daec2cd23c1@prod.shaw.ca>
References: <5b291829c6f562aa26b34daec2cd23c1@prod.shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <498796BB.1020300@shaw.ca>

Carol,

I would be interested in seeing a copy of the cover or title page for 
your "Lutheran" church book records.

If you use the LDS search system to find microfilms of 19th century 
Lutheran records in Germany, you won't find them listed under 
"Lutheran".  They are under Evangelisch.  Example:

Evangelische Kirche Nagold (OA. Nagold) [copied and pasted from the 
search result]

They will yield Lutheran, not Reformed records because there has never 
been a Reformed Church in Nagold.

Similarly, if you wish to search for church books in Warsaw Archives, 
your options include:
ewangelickie
ewangelicko-augsburskie
ewangelicko-reformowane

The first two are Lutheran, the last one is Reformed.  There is no word 
listed equivalent to "Lutheran".  Except for the far western side of 
Volhynia near the Bug River, there was no Reformed Church presence 
within Volhynia.

I have no doubt that the church conflict existed in your referenced 
parish but I doubt the the Lutheran side referred to themselves as 
Lutheran in that time frame.


Jerry Frank
Calgary, AB





Carol Duff wrote:
> My family story is from Hesse, where I have found in a church book a 
> notation that a Lutheran pastor refused to baptize the son of an 
> ancestor, until that ancestor threatened to take him to his home 
> community for baptism. That man was working in Saxony at that time, and 
> Hesse was reformed. The Lutheran pastor probably wanted to convert him. 
> This was in the early 1800's.  The pastor of the home church explained 
> it to me, that they were not Lutheran but Reformed. Carol
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
> 


From fnr at thebluezone.net  Mon Feb  2 18:51:37 2009
From: fnr at thebluezone.net (Frieda )
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 19:51:37 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] HELP WITH TRANSLATION
In-Reply-To: <79pc8o$1gi76b@pd6mo1no-svcs.prod.shaw.ca>
References: <79pc8o$1gi76b@pd6mo1no-svcs.prod.shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAJPtxRhPu9ZIgb4nNf6yKTXCgAAAEAAAAHg7GjBa1DlKs/UzSR/2yYQBAAAAAA==@thebluezone.net>

IHRE VERMAHLUNG GEBEN BEKANNT GUNTHER ROSS UND FRAU ANNELIESE   
GEB. STROHSCHOEN 
SCHWERIN 12 DEZEMBER 1947 WITTENBURGER STRASSE 64

SORRY I HAD SURGERY ON MY HAND AND TYPING IS DIFFICULT.
THANKS FOR YPUR HELP.
FRIEDA ROSS



From cgschott at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  2 19:16:54 2009
From: cgschott at earthlink.net (Carolyn Schott)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 19:16:54 -0800
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] "elder"
In-Reply-To: <mailman.22.1233629545.782.ger-poland-volhynia@eclipse.sggee.org>
References: <mailman.22.1233629545.782.ger-poland-volhynia@eclipse.sggee.org>
Message-ID: <FEA69A11B84C42059BC99A1E6D0E7110@Carolyn>

Just don't tell a German you're Presbyterian. I told my German teacher in
Freiburg that and he looked at me strangely and more or less asked what sort
of weird denomination that was. And didn't seem to believe me when I told
him in the U.S. it's a very mainstream, non-cultlike denonmination! :-) I
guess maybe if I'd thought to use the term "Reform" he wouldn't have thought
it was so strange.


Carolyn


>
>Message: 2
>Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 15:49:37 -0500
>From: John Bettger <ceo at ametric.com>
>Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] "elder"
>To: Jerry Frank <FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca>, Carol Duff
>	<cmduff at redwing.net>
>Cc: "ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org"
>	<ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
>Message-ID:
>	
>
>Actually I have found in northern Germany if you say Lutheran 
>Church they will not know what you are talking about. I 
>believe, today, Germans call it Evangelic Kirch.
>
>Best Regards
>John Leon Bettger
>email address  ceo at ametric.com
>



From hgillespie at rogers.com  Mon Feb  2 19:39:58 2009
From: hgillespie at rogers.com (Helen Gillespie)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 19:39:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] HELP WITH TRANSLATION
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAJPtxRhPu9ZIgb4nNf6yKTXCgAAAEAAAAHg7GjBa1DlKs/UzSR/2yYQBAAAAAA==@thebluezone.net>
Message-ID: <308193.43272.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

The marriage/wedding is announced of Gunter Ross and Mrs. Anneliese (maiden name Strohschoen) at Schwerin 12 Dec 1947,  64 Wittenburger Street

BTW Schwerin is in the former East Germany in Mecklenburg province.

Helen


--- On Tue, 2/3/09, Frieda <fnr at thebluezone.net> wrote:

> From: Frieda <fnr at thebluezone.net>
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] HELP WITH TRANSLATION
> To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
> Received: Tuesday, February 3, 2009, 2:51 AM
> IHRE VERMAHLUNG GEBEN BEKANNT GUNTHER ROSS UND FRAU
> ANNELIESE   
> GEB. STROHSCHOEN 
> SCHWERIN 12 DEZEMBER 1947 WITTENBURGER STRASSE 64
> 
> SORRY I HAD SURGERY ON MY HAND AND TYPING IS DIFFICULT.
> THANKS FOR YPUR HELP.
> FRIEDA ROSS
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe
> http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv


From al_dixon at shaw.ca  Mon Feb  2 19:40:50 2009
From: al_dixon at shaw.ca (Al and Marlene Dixon)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 20:40:50 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Surnames:  BOSS, HOFFMAN
Message-ID: <230A5459C77C46EBA0C4FF815DF8D219@YOURE5FF64BC95>

I am searching for information on the BOSS family.  Jacob Boss, Great Grandfather - no info on birth or death dates.  Married Efrasina (Rosina) HOFFMAN.  She died in Poland around 1900.  My Grandfather is Edward BOSS born Sept 28, 1889 and siblings William August Boss born May 10, 1886, Fred BOSS born in 1876 and Karoline BOSS born Jan 27, 1884.  She died May 13, 1967 and was married to Friedrich Gotz.  I believe she might be buried in Sobienie.  My Grandfather Edward Boss and his brothers immigrated to the USA.  Eventually my Grandfather moved to Manitoba, Canada.  On immigration papers he lists his place of birth as Zubena which I believe is Sobienie.  I do not know what religion they would have been part of at that time.  On similar documents he and his brothers list their parents as being Russian or from the Soviet Union.  I am beginning to understand some of the history of Poland and believe that would be consistent with the history of Poland at the time of his parents births.  There are possibly other family members by the last name of Gotz, Gunther, Ciborowski from the Karoline Boss line living or buried in Sobienie.  There is also some information that links the family to Volhynia.  To date I have not been able to find any info on the BOSS family.  Any assistance/advice is appreciated. 

From otto at schienke.com  Mon Feb  2 20:56:56 2009
From: otto at schienke.com (Otto)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 23:56:56 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] "Lutheran vs. Reformed Lutheran"
Message-ID: <2634CF39-5942-47EC-9EA7-86A550D41CE3@schienke.com>

Good evening Everyone,

(the following can all be wikipedia reviewed)
One must remember it is not about names applied to a religious  
construct that make it 'different', but the beliefs held, a dogma,  
instead.
Almost all of the parish records reviewed of colonists are referred to  
as Evangelische Augsburgische (Kirche), i.e. Evangelical Lutheran  
Church following the Augsburg Confession. (this is with exception  
where they registered in Catholic parishes as protestant, registering  
in obedience to the law)

Evangelische Augsburgische Kirche is the Evangelical Lutheran Church.
'Augsburgische' defining it as the Lutheran Augsburg Confession of  
Faith of 1530 c.e.

The Augsburg Confession, presented to rulers 25th of June 1530. (latin? 
Confessio Augustana)
The Augsburg Confession is simply a statement of belief by the  
followers of Luther who came to be called 'Lutheran'.
They contain 28 Articles, a statement of Lutheran Belief, established  
belief or doctrine called Dogma.
The Lutheran Church follows the 'Unaltered' Augsburg Confession.

The term 'reformed' refers to a change of dogma or confession of belief.
In 1540, a revised edition 'Variata' was produced by Phillip  
Melanchthon (a friend of Luther) and signed by John Calvin.
It altered Luther's beliefs on 'sacramental union (unio sacramentalis/ 
Sakramentliche Einigkeit)
This is the reason many church books name the 'Unaltered Augburg  
Confession'.

Later in time regarding 'reform' (of belief) question came up  
regarding Calvin's concept of 'predestination'.
(in contrast with the 28 Articles, article 18., the freedom of will) A  
move to make it more palatable with Calvinists.

'Reformed' Lutheran, refers to Lutherans with a belief structure that  
has been 'altered' from the original Augsburg Confession.

The term, "Reformed", applies to any Protestant Church Parish that has  
'altered' its own original belief structure.

The Catholic priest, Martin Luther, did so, hence the 'Reformation'.

This brings about dissention among specific groups of similar people  
because a social group and culture builds around a chosen belief  
structure, giving one reason to see different beliefs as "other",  yet  
they are all of the human family. Freedom of choice is probably the  
greatest freedom.

For a Lutheran to become a Baptist was not to 'reform' their belief.  
It was simply choosing a 'different' Protestant Christian belief  
structure.



. . .   Otto
          " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 04, 2009-
               ________________________________
                 "The future. . . . always catches up."



From GHBoehm at ish.de  Tue Feb  3 01:10:27 2009
From: GHBoehm at ish.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=FCnther_B=F6hm?=)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 10:10:27 +0100
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Evangelisch=reformed
References: 5b291829c6f562aa26b34daec2cd23c1
Message-ID: <49880A03.40502@ish.de>

Carol Duff schrieb:
> My family story is from Hesse, where I have found in a church book a 
> notation that a Lutheran pastor refused to baptize the son of an 
> ancestor, until that ancestor threatened to take him to his home 
> community for baptism. That man was working in Saxony at that time, and 
> Hesse was reformed. The Lutheran pastor probably wanted to convert him. 
> This was in the early 1800's.  The pastor of the home church explained 
> it to me, that they were not Lutheran but Reformed. Carol
>   
Hello Carol,
when did this baptismal quarrel happen?
After the reformation, Hessen-Nassau was both Lutheran and Reformed and 
the Idstein (Nassau) Synod of 1817 was the first in Germany which united 
them to the "evangelische christliche Kirche". In opposite to Prussia, 
the unification happened by consense of clergy and parishes instead of 
royal order. In consequence there were no subsequent secessions of 
single parishes in Nassau. After the annexation of Hesse by Prussia in 
1866 this church was not integrated into the "Altpreu?ische Union" but 
stayed a formally independent body - under the superintendence of the 
Prussian king. Finally conformity was enforced in 1933 by influence of 
the National Socialist "Deutsche Christen".

G?nther


From robinquilter at gmail.com  Tue Feb  3 02:05:50 2009
From: robinquilter at gmail.com (Robin Grube)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 02:05:50 -0800
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Anabaptists
Message-ID: <d61d61810902030205r4e491df1j5eadd7628d8dbef0@mail.gmail.com>

I think Anabaptist was a good guess. Some folk were called "Stundist" also,
for saying they wanted to snatch even an hour for the special studies. My
German ancestors from Volhynia and Kiev were Lutheran, but the other side of
my family was ethnic Ukrainian from the Kiev area, and they were perhaps
AnaBaptists.The ones who worshipped on Saturday were called subotnikas, I
believe. They felt persecuted at home, and came to the US. There, they
worshipped with other Russian Baptists, some of them became Seventh-Day
Adventists and some became regular Baptists. I've had emails with other
Ukrainian-Americans on this topic and their stories were similar. If they
were true Mennonites in Russia, they could find Mennonite congregations in
the US, but others tried various churches. I comment just on the experiences
of those I know about personally. Robin Grube


From robinquilter at gmail.com  Tue Feb  3 16:12:26 2009
From: robinquilter at gmail.com (Robin Grube)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 16:12:26 -0800
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Lutheran vs. Reformed Lutheran
Message-ID: <d61d61810902031612x53957a3fp8b47ffef1bb7b454@mail.gmail.com>

Otto's comments were interesting. Besides the Volynia/Kiev Germans in my
family, I am also researching Germans from what is present-day Croatia.
There, the majority of the Germans were Roman Catholics. The few that were
what Americans call Lutheran Protestants were called Augsberg Evangelische.
To them, Reformed was sometimes included in Catholic parish records, if the
spouse was Catholic. In that case, they were called of the "Helvetica
confession", which of course refers to the Swiss Reformationist Calvin. So I
believe this agrees with Otto's comments.I found this term in records of the
1830s.

In the U.S., my husband's family are Pennsylvania Germans, and the records
I've found going back to the 1730s, refer to distinct groups called Lutheran
and Reformed.Sometimes they met at the same church, but with different
ministers/pastors and different services. After a time, some churches became
known as Union, because the 2 congregations joined each other. There are
probably slight variations from town to town that had Germans  of mixed
religious beliefs.  Robin Grube


From albert.treichel at sympatico.ca  Wed Feb  4 07:17:09 2009
From: albert.treichel at sympatico.ca (Albert  Treichel)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 10:17:09 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Treichel and Golke Ancestry
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP5755A6A32A6F2EBB12B9F69BC30@phx.gbl>

List Members:
We have recently come across several documents that may be of interest to other list members with similar ancestry. My parents were born in the rural Chelm area of Eastern Poland area around 1900, were exiled to Eastern Russia during WW1 and emigrated to Canada in 1928. Their life is chronicled in the 2007 September SGGEE Journal.
The list of original documents (which I have crudely translated ) includes:
- Birth certificates for the immigrant family members prepared in 1928 from Chelm Powiat Records (in Polish)
- Certificate issued by Chelm area municipality in 1928 stating my father's occupation, good standing and authorizing his departure for Canada (in Polish)
- 1928 family passport issued for emigration (surprisingly in French as well as Polish)
- Military booklet for my father's service in the Polish army in the 1920s (in Polish, lengthy)
- Immigration Identification Cards specifying their 3rd Class passage on the SS Estonia (in English)
- Canadian Naturalization certificates dated 1934 giving the family Canadian Citizenship (in English)
- Confirmation mementoes (Erinnerung) from Poland in 1913 for my father and from Melekess, Russia in 1918 for my mother (in German)
I found it surprising that in spite of the tribulations from forced WW1 exile to remote Eastern Russia and the Russian Revolution that my mother there received an elaborate confirmation memento document in German signed by a German pastor who doubled as Vicar of Samara province. I would assume this implies there was a German church there at which confirmation classes were given. This document and their recollection of being able to work there during exile and actually save money to expand their farm upon return to Poland leads me to believe they suffered less hardship there than many others.
I would be glad to further discuss the above with list members with similar ancestry and am prepared to email some scanned copies/translations if of interest. 
Regards
Albert Treichel, Ottawa, Canada

From rlyster at telusplanet.net  Wed Feb  4 08:00:27 2009
From: rlyster at telusplanet.net (Rita Lyster)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 09:00:27 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Treichel and Golke Ancestry
Message-ID: <21030522.19259801233763227408.JavaMail.nitido@priv-edtnes95>

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From roseingram at shaw.ca  Wed Feb  4 16:39:49 2009
From: roseingram at shaw.ca (Rose Ingram)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 16:39:49 -0800
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Surnames:  BOSS, HOFFMAN
References: <230A5459C77C46EBA0C4FF815DF8D219@YOURE5FF64BC95>
Message-ID: <006301c9872a$406c8600$6601a8c0@duocore>

Al/Marlene

Do you have any information (family lore) that may cite another village or City close to where the family lived.  

Was the family name Boss on the immigration documents or was it possibly Buss or Busse or Boese?

When did Grandfather Edward come in the USA.

Rose Ingram
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Al and Marlene Dixon 
  To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org 
  Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 7:40 PM
  Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Surnames: BOSS, HOFFMAN


  I am searching for information on the BOSS family.  Jacob Boss, Great Grandfather - no info on birth or death dates.  Married Efrasina (Rosina) HOFFMAN.  She died in Poland around 1900.  My Grandfather is Edward BOSS born Sept 28, 1889 and siblings William August Boss born May 10, 1886, Fred BOSS born in 1876 and Karoline BOSS born Jan 27, 1884.  She died May 13, 1967 and was married to Friedrich Gotz.  I believe she might be buried in Sobienie.  My Grandfather Edward Boss and his brothers immigrated to the USA.  Eventually my Grandfather moved to Manitoba, Canada.  On immigration papers he lists his place of birth as Zubena which I believe is Sobienie.  I do not know what religion they would have been part of at that time.  On similar documents he and his brothers list their parents as being Russian or from the Soviet Union.  I am beginning to understand some of the history of Poland and believe that would be consistent with the history of Poland at the time of his parents births.  

  _______________________________________________
  Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
  Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
  Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv

From gary at warnerengineering.com  Wed Feb  4 21:17:48 2009
From: gary at warnerengineering.com (Gary Warner)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 21:17:48 -0800
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Surnames:  BOSS, HOFFMAN
In-Reply-To: <006301c9872a$406c8600$6601a8c0@duocore>
References: <230A5459C77C46EBA0C4FF815DF8D219@YOURE5FF64BC95>
	<006301c9872a$406c8600$6601a8c0@duocore>
Message-ID: <498A767C.7040707@warnerengineering.com>

Al and Marlene,

In order to help you more, it would be nice if you could state the 
following about each name you list, so far as you know it.

1.  Where the person was born and about when

2.  Where the person married, and to whom and when

3.  Who were the children of each person

4.  Who were the parents of each person.

Gary Warner


Rose Ingram wrote:
> Al/Marlene
>
> Do you have any information (family lore) that may cite another village or City close to where the family lived.  
>
> Was the family name Boss on the immigration documents or was it possibly Buss or Busse or Boese?
>
> When did Grandfather Edward come in the USA.
>
> Rose Ingram
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Al and Marlene Dixon 
>   To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org 
>   Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 7:40 PM
>   Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Surnames: BOSS, HOFFMAN
>
>
>   I am searching for information on the BOSS family.  Jacob Boss, Great Grandfather - no info on birth or death dates.  Married Efrasina (Rosina) HOFFMAN.  She died in Poland around 1900.  My Grandfather is Edward BOSS born Sept 28, 1889 and siblings William August Boss born May 10, 1886, Fred BOSS born in 1876 and Karoline BOSS born Jan 27, 1884.  She died May 13, 1967 and was married to Friedrich Gotz.  I believe she might be buried in Sobienie.  My Grandfather Edward Boss and his brothers immigrated to the USA.  Eventually my Grandfather moved to Manitoba, Canada.  On immigration papers he lists his place of birth as Zubena which I believe is Sobienie.  I do not know what religion they would have been part of at that time.  On similar documents he and his brothers list their parents as being Russian or from the Soviet Union.  I am beginning to understand some of the history of Poland and believe that would be consistent with the history of Poland at the time of his parents births.  
>
>   _______________________________________________
>   Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
>   Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
>   Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
>   




From kerstin.petersen at mail.dk  Thu Feb  5 08:43:08 2009
From: kerstin.petersen at mail.dk (Kerstin Petersen)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 17:43:08 +0100
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Evangelisch
Message-ID: <F9D40FCADC574278A48739850CD9F32B@kerstinntszmpi>

The "Evangelische Kirche" is a term for the Lutheran and reformed church. You can also call it the Protestant church. "Protestantische Kirche". In the northern part of germany there are mostly protestants and the south germany katholics.
The "Evangelische Kirche" is a christian church in the tradtition of the reformation.

You cannot translate "evangelisch" to evangelical. (from Wikepedia).

Regards
Kerstin Petersen
Denmark

From e.scheibler at shaw.ca  Thu Feb  5 14:26:36 2009
From: e.scheibler at shaw.ca (E SCHEIBLER)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 17:26:36 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 69,
	Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1233864002.29122.ger-poland-volhynia@eclipse.sggee.org>
References: <mailman.1.1233864002.29122.ger-poland-volhynia@eclipse.sggee.org>
Message-ID: <d165888247eee.498b214c@shaw.ca>

Rose, there was a Hoffman and an Edward Boss, who moved to Dryden, Ontario in the late forties, from the Beausejour, Manitoba area. Edward Boss was well known to my parents. His granddaughters' husband plays hockey with me. This may not be the Edward Boss to whom you are referring but if it could be, I could get her to get in touch with Marlene.

----- Original Message -----
From: ger-poland-volhynia-request at eclipse.sggee.org
Date: Thursday, February 5, 2009 3:01 pm
Subject: Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 69, Issue 7
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org

> Send Ger-Poland-Volhynia mailing list submissions to
> 	ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	http://eclipse.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	ger-poland-volhynia-request at eclipse.sggee.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	ger-poland-volhynia-owner at eclipse.sggee.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Ger-Poland-Volhynia digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
> ?? 1. Re: Surnames:? BOSS, HOFFMAN (Rose Ingram)
> ?? 2. Re: Surnames:? BOSS, HOFFMAN (Gary Warner)
> ?? 3. Evangelisch (Kerstin Petersen)
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 16:39:49 -0800
> From: "Rose Ingram" <roseingram at shaw.ca>
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Surnames:? BOSS, HOFFMAN
> To: "Al and Marlene Dixon" <al_dixon at shaw.ca>,
> 	<ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
> Message-ID: <006301c9872a$406c8600$6601a8c0 at duocore>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Al/Marlene
> 
> Do you have any information (family lore) that may cite another 
> village or City close to where the family lived.? 
> 
> Was the family name Boss on the immigration documents or was it 
> possibly Buss or Busse or Boese?
> 
> When did Grandfather Edward come in the USA.
> 
> Rose Ingram
> ? ----- Original Message ----- 
> ? From: Al and Marlene Dixon 
> ? To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org 
> ? Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 7:40 PM
> ? Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Surnames: BOSS, HOFFMAN
> 
> 
> ? I am searching for information on the BOSS family.? 
> Jacob Boss, Great Grandfather - no info on birth or death 
> dates.? Married Efrasina (Rosina) HOFFMAN.? She died 
> in Poland around 1900.? My Grandfather is Edward BOSS born 
> Sept 28, 1889 and siblings William August Boss born May 10, 
> 1886, Fred BOSS born in 1876 and Karoline BOSS born Jan 27, 
> 1884.? She died May 13, 1967 and was married to Friedrich 
> Gotz.? I believe she might be buried in Sobienie.? My 
> Grandfather Edward Boss and his brothers immigrated to the 
> USA.? Eventually my Grandfather moved to Manitoba, 
> Canada.? On immigration papers he lists his place of birth 
> as Zubena which I believe is Sobienie.? I do not know what 
> religion they would have been part of at that time.? On 
> similar documents he and his brothers list their parents as 
> being Russian or from the Soviet Union.? I am beginning to 
> understand some of the history of Poland and believe that would 
> be consistent with the history of Poland at the time of his 
> parents births.
> 
> ? _______________________________________________
> ? Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> ? Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe 
> http://www.sggee.org? Mailing list info at 
> http://www.sggee.org/listserv
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 21:17:48 -0800
> From: Gary Warner <gary at warnerengineering.com>
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Surnames:? BOSS, HOFFMAN
> To: Rose Ingram <roseingram at shaw.ca>
> Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
> Message-ID: <498A767C.7040707 at warnerengineering.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Al and Marlene,
> 
> In order to help you more, it would be nice if you could state 
> the 
> following about each name you list, so far as you know it.
> 
> 1.? Where the person was born and about when
> 
> 2.? Where the person married, and to whom and when
> 
> 3.? Who were the children of each person
> 
> 4.? Who were the parents of each person.
> 
> Gary Warner
> 
> 
> Rose Ingram wrote:
> > Al/Marlene
> >
> > Do you have any information (family lore) that may cite 
> another village or City close to where the family lived.? 
> >
> > Was the family name Boss on the immigration documents or was 
> it possibly Buss or Busse or Boese?
> >
> > When did Grandfather Edward come in the USA.
> >
> > Rose Ingram
> >?? ----- Original Message ----- 
> >?? From: Al and Marlene Dixon 
> >?? To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org 
> >?? Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 7:40 PM
> >?? Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Surnames: BOSS, HOFFMAN
> >
> >
> >?? I am searching for information on the BOSS 
> family.? Jacob Boss, Great Grandfather - no info on birth 
> or death dates.? Married Efrasina (Rosina) HOFFMAN.? 
> She died in Poland around 1900.? My Grandfather is Edward 
> BOSS born Sept 28, 1889 and siblings William August Boss born 
> May 10, 1886, Fred BOSS born in 1876 and Karoline BOSS born Jan 
> 27, 1884.? She died May 13, 1967 and was married to 
> Friedrich Gotz.? I believe she might be buried in 
> Sobienie.? My Grandfather Edward Boss and his brothers 
> immigrated to the USA.? Eventually my Grandfather moved to 
> Manitoba, Canada.? On immigration papers he lists his place 
> of birth as Zubena which I believe is Sobienie.? I do not 
> know what religion they would have been part of at that 
> time.? On similar documents he and his brothers list their 
> parents as being Russian or from the Soviet Union.? I am 
> beginning to understand some of the history of Poland and 
> believe that would be consistent with the history of Poland at 
> the time of his parents birth
> >
> >?? _______________________________________________
> >?? Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> >?? Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe 
> http://www.sggee.org>?? Mailing list info at 
> http://www.sggee.org/listserv>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
> >?? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 17:43:08 +0100
> From: "Kerstin Petersen" <kerstin.petersen at mail.dk>
> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Evangelisch
> To: "Sggee Mailingliste" <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
> Message-ID: <F9D40FCADC574278A48739850CD9F32B at kerstinntszmpi>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> The "Evangelische Kirche" is a term for the Lutheran and 
> reformed church. You can also call it the Protestant church. 
> "Protestantische Kirche". In the northern part of germany there 
> are mostly protestants and the south germany katholics.
> The "Evangelische Kirche" is a christian church in the 
> tradtition of the reformation.
> 
> You cannot translate "evangelisch" to evangelical. (from Wikepedia).
> 
> Regards
> Kerstin Petersen
> Denmark
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia mailing list, hosted by the:
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe? 
> http://www.sggee.orgMailing list info at 
> http://www.sggee.org/listserv.html
> 
> End of Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 69, Issue 7
> **************************************************
> 


From Bussman62 at aol.com  Thu Feb  5 16:43:12 2009
From: Bussman62 at aol.com (Bussman62@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 19:43:12 EST
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] surnames:  Boss, Hoffman (Rose Ingram)
Message-ID: <d4c.37c71dc2.36bce1a0@aol.com>

Al/Marlene,
 
 I find it interesting that you mention the "Boss" surname and then  tie it 
in to a "Gotz" marriage.  As Rose knows (thank you for your help  over the 
years!) I have that exact combination in my family tree.   Spellings change based 
on how the name was heard and many  become quite  mangled in the process.  My 
last name Busse (bus see) would have been  pronounced Boosa and maybe heard as 
Boss by the immigration agents.  It's a  wonder anyone can make connections 
if you think of it!  They were from the  Gostynin area near the Vistula River 
and married into the Goetz family from the  Plock area just across the river.  
This location had a big German  settlement (aka colonists)  from the 
1700's-WW1 and I suggest you check out  "Upstream Vistula"  which does a fine job of 
taking you back in  time.   It was Soviet controlled as you say but better put 
as under  Russian rule during that time period.   We like to call ourselves  
Eastern European because in reality we are Germans hailing from Russian Poland  
and that all gets confusing!
 
If you find a link, I'd be more than happy to share what I have and my  
suggestion is to look at the greater Gostynin area as a start.  Rose...what  are 
your thoughts?  Shettle seeker is also valuable to find old villages if  you 
remember any names.
 
Don Busse
 
 
In a message dated 2/5/2009 3:02:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
ger-poland-volhynia-request at eclipse.sggee.org writes:

Send  Ger-Poland-Volhynia mailing list submissions to
ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via  the World Wide Web, visit
http://eclipse.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia
or, via  email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
ger-poland-volhynia-request at eclipse.sggee.org

You can reach the person  managing the list at
ger-poland-volhynia-owner at eclipse.sggee.org

When replying, please edit  your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of  Ger-Poland-Volhynia digest..."


Today's Topics:

1. Re: Surnames:  BOSS, HOFFMAN (Rose Ingram)
2. Re:  Surnames:  BOSS, HOFFMAN (Gary Warner)
3. Evangelisch  (Kerstin  Petersen)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message:  1
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 16:39:49 -0800
From: "Rose Ingram"  <roseingram at shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia]  Surnames:  BOSS, HOFFMAN
To: "Al and Marlene Dixon"  <al_dixon at shaw.ca>,
<ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Message-ID:  <006301c9872a$406c8600$6601a8c0 at duocore>
Content-Type:  text/plain;    charset="iso-8859-1"

Al/Marlene

Do you  have any information (family lore) that may cite another village or 
City close  to where the family lived.  

Was the family name Boss on the  immigration documents or was it possibly 
Buss or Busse or Boese?

When  did Grandfather Edward come in the USA.

Rose Ingram
-----  Original Message ----- 
From: Al and Marlene Dixon 
To:  ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org 
Sent: Monday, February 02,  2009 7:40 PM
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Surnames: BOSS,  HOFFMAN


I am searching for information on the BOSS  family.  Jacob Boss, Great 
Grandfather - no info on birth or death  dates.  Married Efrasina (Rosina) HOFFMAN.  
She died in Poland  around 1900.  My Grandfather is Edward BOSS born Sept 28, 
1889 and  siblings William August Boss born May 10, 1886, Fred BOSS born in 
1876 and  Karoline BOSS born Jan 27, 1884.  She died May 13, 1967 and was 
married  to Friedrich Gotz.  I believe she might be buried in Sobienie.  My  
Grandfather Edward Boss and his brothers immigrated to the USA.   Eventually my 
Grandfather moved to Manitoba, Canada.  On immigration  papers he lists his place 
of birth as Zubena which I believe is  Sobienie.  I do not know what religion 
they would have been part of at  that time.  On similar documents he and his 
brothers list their parents  as being Russian or from the Soviet Union.  I am 
beginning to understand  some of the history of Poland and believe that would 
be consistent with the  history of Poland at the time of his parents births.  

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia  Mailing List hosted by
Society for German Genealogy in Eastern  Europe http://www.sggee.org
Mailing list info at  http://www.sggee.org/listserv

------------------------------

Message:  2
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 21:17:48 -0800
From: Gary Warner  <gary at warnerengineering.com>
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia]  Surnames:  BOSS, HOFFMAN
To: Rose Ingram  <roseingram at shaw.ca>
Cc:  ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Message-ID:  <498A767C.7040707 at warnerengineering.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;  charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Al and Marlene,

In order to  help you more, it would be nice if you could state the 
following about  each name you list, so far as you know it.

1.  Where the person  was born and about when

2.  Where the person married, and to whom  and when

3.  Who were the children of each person

4.   Who were the parents of each person.

Gary Warner


Rose Ingram  wrote:
> Al/Marlene
>
> Do you have any information (family  lore) that may cite another village or 
City close to where the family  lived.  
>
> Was the family name Boss on the immigration  documents or was it possibly 
Buss or Busse or Boese?
>
> When did  Grandfather Edward come in the USA.
>
> Rose  Ingram
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>    From: Al and Marlene Dixon 
>   To:  ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org 
>   Sent: Monday,  February 02, 2009 7:40 PM
>   Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia]  Surnames: BOSS, HOFFMAN
>
>
>   I am searching for  information on the BOSS family.  Jacob Boss, Great 
Grandfather - no info  on birth or death dates.  Married Efrasina (Rosina) 
HOFFMAN.  She  died in Poland around 1900.  My Grandfather is Edward BOSS born Sept 
28,  1889 and siblings William August Boss born May 10, 1886, Fred BOSS born 
in  1876 and Karoline BOSS born Jan 27, 1884.  She died May 13, 1967 and was  
married to Friedrich Gotz.  I believe she might be buried in  Sobienie.  My 
Grandfather Edward Boss and his brothers immigrated to the  USA.  Eventually my 
Grandfather moved to Manitoba, Canada.  On  immigration papers he lists his 
place of birth as Zubena which I believe is  Sobienie.  I do not know what 
religion they would have been part of at  that time.  On similar documents he and 
his brothers list their parents  as being Russian or from the Soviet Union.  I 
am beginning to understand  some of the history of Poland and believe that 
would be consistent with the  history of Poland at the time of his parents 
births.   
>
>    _______________________________________________
>    Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
>   Society for  German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
>    Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
>
>  _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia  Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe  http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at  http://www.sggee.org/listserv
>    




------------------------------

Message: 3
Date:  Thu, 5 Feb 2009 17:43:08 +0100
From: "Kerstin Petersen"  <kerstin.petersen at mail.dk>
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia]  Evangelisch
To: "Sggee Mailingliste"  <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Message-ID:  <F9D40FCADC574278A48739850CD9F32B at kerstinntszmpi>
Content-Type:  text/plain;    charset="iso-8859-1"

The "Evangelische Kirche"  is a term for the Lutheran and reformed church. 
You can also call it the  Protestant church. "Protestantische Kirche". In the 
northern part of germany  there are mostly protestants and the south germany 
katholics.
The  "Evangelische Kirche" is a christian church in the tradtition of the  
reformation.

You cannot translate "evangelisch" to evangelical. (from  Wikepedia).

Regards
Kerstin  Petersen
Denmark

------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia  mailing list, hosted by the:
Society for German Genealogy in Eastern  Europe  http://www.sggee.org
Mailing list info at  http://www.sggee.org/listserv.html


End of Ger-Poland-Volhynia  Digest, Vol 69, Issue  7
**************************************************


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From roseingram at shaw.ca  Thu Feb  5 18:19:28 2009
From: roseingram at shaw.ca (Rose Ingram)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 18:19:28 -0800
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] surnames:  Boss, Hoffman (Rose Ingram)
References: <d4c.37c71dc2.36bce1a0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009701c98801$56c90810$6601a8c0@duocore>

Hi Don,

I know where you are coming from with your research ideas, and initially I had the same thoughts.

I have now been corresponding privately with Marlene and it has been determined that the surname definitely is Boss and the family hailed from Warsaw or Lodz area.  More sifting needs to be done but I think progress is being made.

Rose Ingram


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bussman62 at aol.com 
  To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org 
  Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 4:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] surnames: Boss, Hoffman (Rose Ingram)


  Al/Marlene,
   
   I find it interesting that you mention the "Boss" surname and then  tie it 
  in to a "Gotz" marriage.  As Rose knows (thank you for your help  over the 
  years!) I have that exact combination in my family tree.   Spellings change based 
  on how the name was heard and many  become quite  mangled in the process.  My 
  last name Busse (bus see) would have been  pronounced Boosa and maybe heard as 
  Boss by the immigration agents.  It's a  wonder anyone can make connections 
  if you think of it!  They were from the  Gostynin area near the Vistula River 
  and married into the Goetz family from the  Plock area just across the river.  
  This location had a big German  settlement (aka colonists)  from the 
  1700's-WW1 and I suggest you check out  "Upstream Vistula"  which does a fine job of 
  taking you back in  time.   It was Soviet controlled as you say but better put 
  as under  Russian rule during that time period.   We like to call ourselves  
  Eastern European because in reality we are Germans hailing from Russian Poland  
  and that all gets confusing!
   
  If you find a link, I'd be more than happy to share what I have and my  
  suggestion is to look at the greater Gostynin area as a start.  Rose...what  are 
  your thoughts?  Shettle seeker is also valuable to find old villages if  you 
  remember any names.
   
  Don Busse
   
   
  Message:  1
  Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 16:39:49 -0800
  From: "Rose Ingram"  <roseingram at shaw.ca>
  Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia]  Surnames:  BOSS, HOFFMAN
  To: "Al and Marlene Dixon"  <al_dixon at shaw.ca>,
  <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
  Message-ID:  <006301c9872a$406c8600$6601a8c0 at duocore>
  Content-Type:  text/plain;    charset="iso-8859-1"

  Al/Marlene

  Do you  have any information (family lore) that may cite another village or 
  City close  to where the family lived.  

  Was the family name Boss on the  immigration documents or was it possibly 
  Buss or Busse or Boese?

  When  did Grandfather Edward come in the USA.

  Rose Ingram
  -----  Original Message ----- 
  From: Al and Marlene Dixon 
  To:  ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org 
  Sent: Monday, February 02,  2009 7:40 PM
  Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Surnames: BOSS,  HOFFMAN


  I am searching for information on the BOSS  family.  Jacob Boss, Great 
  Grandfather - no info on birth or death  dates.  Married Efrasina (Rosina) HOFFMAN.  
  She died in Poland  around 1900.  My Grandfather is Edward BOSS born Sept 28, 
  1889 and  siblings William August Boss born May 10, 1886, Fred BOSS born in 
  1876 and  Karoline BOSS born Jan 27, 1884.  She died May 13, 1967 and was 
  married  to Friedrich Gotz.  I believe she might be buried in Sobienie.  My  
  Grandfather Edward Boss and his brothers immigrated to the USA.   Eventually my 
  Grandfather moved to Manitoba, Canada.  On immigration  papers he lists his place 
  of birth as Zubena which I believe is  Sobienie.  I do not know what religion 
  they would have been part of at  that time.  On similar documents he and his 
  brothers list their parents  as being Russian or from the Soviet Union.  I am 
  beginning to understand  some of the history of Poland and believe that would 
  be consistent with the  history of Poland at the time of his parents births.  

  _______________________________________________
  Ger-Poland-Volhynia  Mailing List hosted by
  Society for German Genealogy in Eastern  Europe http://www.sggee.org
  Mailing list info at  http://www.sggee.org/listserv

  ------------------------------

  Message:  2
  Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 21:17:48 -0800
  From: Gary Warner  <gary at warnerengineering.com>
  Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia]  Surnames:  BOSS, HOFFMAN
  To: Rose Ingram  <roseingram at shaw.ca>
  Cc:  ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
  Message-ID:  <498A767C.7040707 at warnerengineering.com>
  Content-Type: text/plain;  charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

  Al and Marlene,

  In order to  help you more, it would be nice if you could state the 
  following about  each name you list, so far as you know it.

  1.  Where the person  was born and about when

  2.  Where the person married, and to whom  and when

  3.  Who were the children of each person

  4.   Who were the parents of each person.

  Gary Warner


  Rose Ingram  wrote:
  > Al/Marlene
  >
  > Do you have any information (family  lore) that may cite another village or 
  City close to where the family  lived.  
  >
  > Was the family name Boss on the immigration  documents or was it possibly 
  Buss or Busse or Boese?
  >
  > When did  Grandfather Edward come in the USA.
  >
  > Rose  Ingram
  >   ----- Original Message ----- 
  >    From: Al and Marlene Dixon 
  >   To:  ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org 
  >   Sent: Monday,  February 02, 2009 7:40 PM
  >   Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia]  Surnames: BOSS, HOFFMAN
  >
  >
  >   I am searching for  information on the BOSS family.  Jacob Boss, Great 
  Grandfather - no info  on birth or death dates.  Married Efrasina (Rosina) 
  HOFFMAN.  She  died in Poland around 1900.  My Grandfather is Edward BOSS born Sept 
  28,  1889 and siblings William August Boss born May 10, 1886, Fred BOSS born 
  in  1876 and Karoline BOSS born Jan 27, 1884.  She died May 13, 1967 and was  
  married to Friedrich Gotz.  I believe she might be buried in  Sobienie.  My 
  Grandfather Edward Boss and his brothers immigrated to the  USA.  Eventually my 
  Grandfather moved to Manitoba, Canada.  On  immigration papers he lists his 
  place of birth as Zubena which I believe is  Sobienie.  I do not know what 
  religion they would have been part of at  that time.  On similar documents he and 
  his brothers list their parents  as being Russian or from the Soviet Union.  I 
  am beginning to understand  some of the history of Poland and believe that 
  would be consistent with the  history of Poland at the time of his parents 
  births.   
  >



From FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca  Thu Feb  5 18:37:13 2009
From: FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 19:37:13 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] surnames:  Boss, Hoffman (Rose Ingram)
In-Reply-To: <d4c.37c71dc2.36bce1a0@aol.com>
References: <d4c.37c71dc2.36bce1a0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <498BA259.8070307@shaw.ca>

I just wanted to point out that the Boss surname appears in the 
Volhynian church records.  I am not suggesting that an association with 
Busse or even Boese is not possible but it does not necessarily have to 
be blamed on an immigration agent.


Jerry Frank
Calgary, AB



Bussman62 at aol.com wrote:
> Al/Marlene,
>  
>  I find it interesting that you mention the "Boss" surname and then  tie it 
> in to a "Gotz" marriage.  As Rose knows (thank you for your help  over the 
> years!) I have that exact combination in my family tree.   Spellings change based 
> on how the name was heard and many  become quite  mangled in the process.  My 
> last name Busse (bus see) would have been  pronounced Boosa and maybe heard as 
> Boss by the immigration agents.  It's a  wonder anyone can make connections 
> if you think of it!  They were from the  Gostynin area near the Vistula River 
> and married into the Goetz family from the  Plock area just across the river.  
> This location had a big German  settlement (aka colonists)  from the 
> 1700's-WW1 and I suggest you check out  "Upstream Vistula"  which does a fine job of 
> taking you back in  time.   It was Soviet controlled as you say but better put 
> as under  Russian rule during that time period.   We like to call ourselves  
> Eastern European because in reality we are Germans hailing from Russian Poland  
> and that all gets confusing!
>  
> If you find a link, I'd be more than happy to share what I have and my  
> suggestion is to look at the greater Gostynin area as a start.  Rose...what  are 
> your thoughts?  Shettle seeker is also valuable to find old villages if  you 
> remember any names.
>  
> Don Busse
>  
>  



From FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca  Thu Feb  5 19:05:42 2009
From: FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 20:05:42 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Evangelisch
In-Reply-To: <F9D40FCADC574278A48739850CD9F32B@kerstinntszmpi>
References: <F9D40FCADC574278A48739850CD9F32B@kerstinntszmpi>
Message-ID: <498BA906.8010906@shaw.ca>

Some of our readers may consider this issue to be non-relevant to the 
purpose of our list but I think it is very important to an understanding 
of historical roots and the records which we need to research so I am 
allowing the discussion to continue.  Just delete if you are not interested.

It is important to understand two things.  One is the difference between 
words used to describe a church and words used to name a church.  The 
second is the usage of terms in the 19th century versus how they are 
used today.

The term "protestant" describes all non-Catholic Christian churches.  It 
is  never applied as the name of a church (at least not for major 
denominations).  Similarly, based on the root meaning of the word, the 
term "evangelical" can apply generically to all protestant churches.  In 
modern North American context, it usually describes those protestant 
churches that have a particular fervor for outreach mission, sometimes 
with negative implications.  In descriptive context, regardless of what 
Wikipedia states, evangelisch is indeed the same as evangelical. 
Similarly, reformed can be a generic protestant church reference as 
well, with reference to Reformation origins.

Even the term "Lutheran" can have a generic context, at least as used in 
English and of course in a much narrower framework.  English texts in 
many situations will refer to German Lutherans.  In historical context, 
this is a reference to those Germans who follow Luther's teachings 
rather than Germans who are members of a church that carries "Lutheran" 
in its name.

In 19th century or earlier context, I have never seen a church book that 
is titled, "Evangelisch Lutherische Kirche".  It is always either 
Evangelisch or Evangelisch Augsburgische.  The earlier churches that 
based their theology on Luther's teachings did not include his name in 
the name of the church.  Similarly for Reformed churches, the title will 
be Evangelish Reformierte, not Evanglisch by itself nor Reformierte by 
itself.

Quoting from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09458a.htm (which is 
perhaps somewhat more reliable than Wikipedia):

"Lutheranism:  The religious belief held by the oldest and in Europe the 
most numerous of the Protestant sects, founded by the Wittenberg 
reformer, Martin Luther.  The term 'Lutheran' was first used by his 
opponents during the Leipzig Disputation in 1519, and afterwards became 
universally prevalent.  Luther preferred the designation "Evangelical", 
and TODAY [empahsis mine] the usual title of the sect is "Evangelical 
Lutheran Church". In Germany,where the Lutherans and the Reformed have 
united (since 1817), the name Lutheran has been abandoned, and the state 
Church is styled the Evangelical or the Evangelical United."

The rest of the article includes a brief, interesting history of 
Lutheranism in German territories and Poland.


Jerry Frank
Calgary, AB

Kerstin Petersen wrote:
> The "Evangelische Kirche" is a term for the Lutheran and reformed church. You can also call it the Protestant church. "Protestantische Kirche". In the northern part of germany there are mostly protestants and the south germany katholics.
> The "Evangelische Kirche" is a christian church in the tradtition of the reformation.
> 
> You cannot translate "evangelisch" to evangelical. (from Wikepedia).
> 
> Regards
> Kerstin Petersen
> Denmark
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
> 


From marmel at pctcnet.net  Fri Feb  6 02:10:29 2009
From: marmel at pctcnet.net (Linda Windmoeller)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 04:10:29 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Neumann - Kerth marriage at Witkowo
Message-ID: <B80F72C7B2D64B4796A975DCB0833BCA@VistaPC>

In reply to the 'betner' post on 1 Feb:

< Message: 1
< Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 15:37:17 -0600
< From: betner at juno.com
< Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Surnames: Kerth, Neumann, Nehring, Hein
< To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
< Message-ID: <20090201.153718.2716.6.Betner at juno.com>
< Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

< Anna Caroline Kerth (25 years), daughter of Christoph Kerth, married
< August 18, 1841 in Witkowo Lutheran Church in Witkowo, Kreis Witkowo,
< Posen, Preussen (Germany), married Johann Neumann (22 years), son of
< Johann Neumann from Starvizcyner in Poland.  I would like to know more
< family information predating this.  Can anyone help me on how to locate
< more information from this area?  

I am researching my NEUMANN and SCHULZ ancestors in this same area of villages, which includes Witkowo.  I've found some Witkowo records included in the Schwarzenau Evangelische Lutherische Church Kirchenbucher (on LDS films).  The city of Schwarzenau, Posen is now current day Czerniejewo, Wielkopolski, Poland and is located about 22 miles east of the City of Poznan, with Witkowo another 11.5 miles east of Czerniejewo, located along highway 260.  Per ShtetlSeeker, I think I've figured out the village of Starvizcyner to be Wszedzien Stary, Kujawsko-Pomorskie, Poland (or called Stary Wszedzien, near current day Wszedzien), which is 3 miles north of Mogilno, and 26 miles northeast of Czerniejewo, 16 miles northeast of Gniezno, 8 miles northeast of Grabowo -- being is the birthplace of my GG grandma Anna Christine SCHULZ who married August NEUMANN in 1851.  Your Johann Neumann and my August Neumann may be related.  Witkowo is 18 miles SSW of Wszedzien. (all per scale shown on Microsoft Vitual Earth map)

Schwarzenau Lutheran Church LDS films (These I have paid for on permanent loan at Marshfield, Wisconsin):
808136 (1780-1794)
808137 (1818-1826)
1960605 (1795-1851)
1960606 (1852-1879)
0810528 (1827-1845) duplikat
0810529 (1846-1856) duplikat
0810530 (1857-1865) duplikat
1201430 (1866-1871)
1201431 (1872-1874)

Witkowo Lutheran Church LDS films (I haven't looked at these):
764473 (1817-1828)
764474 (1829-1836)
764475 (1837-1846)
764476 (1847-1854)
764477 (1855-1865)
1194808 (1866-1874)

Witkowo Catholic Church LDS films (I haven't looked at these):
764471 (1817-1834, 1837)
764472 (1838-1859, 1861-1865)
1048417 (1604-1654)
1048418 (1672-1771)
1048419 (1608-1720, some to 1824)
1194808 (1866-1874)
2058257 (1600's-1700's, 1821-1853)
2060393 (1608-1848)
2060394 (1848-1853)
2062039 (1854-1914)
2062040 (1870-1936)
2346510 (1914-1944)

Witkowo Civil Registry LDS films:
1194808 - 1194810
1608489 - 1608492

Besides, Witkowo there were also Roman Catholic churches in Schwarzenau, and Gniezno (filmed), and a separate Lutheran church in Gniezno (filmed).  Reading the old German handwriting on the microfilms is slow, hard work (I'm learning painstakingly).  The duplikat films are much easier to read.  I have spent hours upon hours researching microfilms.

The Schwarzenau Lutheran Church appears to have been BIG, with confirmations for the year 1878 alone totalling 878 youths/young adults on 5 contiguous Sundays starting with Palmarum (Palm Sunday)!  I'm estimating the church membership totalled at least 4000 people (800 families times 5 to a family, or 500 families times 8 to a family)?  Maybe the church had a circuit ministry to the many small villages?  I've tallied at least 41 villages recorded in the Schwarzenau Lutheran Church records.  By circa 1900 the Schwarzenau Lutheran community numbered only 1384 souls, maybe due to emmigration?  My ancestors came to the USA in 1890.  

It would make sense that baptizms took place in the villages rather than making the 20-30 mile round trip to the church in a horse cart with a one-day old baby.  Please, any listmates, can you shed more light on protocol for baptisms/marriages in outlying villages in Posen?  My SCHULZ ancestors were 15 miles to the northeast from the Schwarzenau church, living in Grabowo.  And a NEUMANN lived 4 miles southwest in Nekla, where he worked as a day laborer in the Neklaer Walde.  [Hmm, maybe there is some basis for our family lore of my GG grandmother's family owning a sawmill in the 'black forest' or 'schwarzwald' of Germany -- only it was probably in the 'walde near Schwarzenau' in current-day Poland, and a long way from the infamous Schwarzwald. ;^) ]

I found the following Witkowo marriage records on the Poznan project website  http://bindweed.man.poznan.pl/posen/search.php 
(which perhaps you used to find the record which you are inquiring about)  I like that the site lets you add a comment to a record.  You can submit marriage records (typed in Xcel or MS Word) to add to the site. I haven't gotten around to typing up and submitting my research yet.

1829: Record #28, Gottfried NEUMANN (22), father: Ludwig NEUMANN, & Anna Rosina REITER (17), father: Johann REITER

1832: Record #11, Gottfried NEUMANN (45) & Anna Rosina KERTH (18), father: Christoph KERTH
1841: Record #17, Johann NEUMANN (22), father: Johann NEUMANN, & Anna Caroline KERTH (25), father: Christoph KERTH  (this is your record of inquiry)
1847: Record #03, Johann NEUBAUER (38), & Anna Caroline KERTH (24), widower, father: Martin KERTH
1863, Record #08, Johann Gottlieb SCHULZ (39), father: Gottfried SCHULZ, & Emilie SCHWANDKE geborn KERTH (32) - divorced

1846, Record #24, Friedrich NEUMAN (25), father: Daniel NEUMAN, & Anna Caroline TONN (17), father: Martin TONN; film 764477 (1855-1865) - Lutheran

I hope this helps.  If you have any more information on the Neumann side, please contact me.

Linda in Wisconsin, USA

PS  By chance, with a juno.com email address, do you live in Wisconsin or midwest USA? 






From GHBoehm at ish.de  Fri Feb  6 05:02:42 2009
From: GHBoehm at ish.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=FCnther_B=F6hm?=)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 14:02:42 +0100
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] surnames:  Boss, Hoffman (Rose Ingram)
In-Reply-To: <498BA259.8070307@shaw.ca>
References: <d4c.37c71dc2.36bce1a0@aol.com> <498BA259.8070307@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <498C34F2.1050900@ish.de>

Jerry Frank schrieb:
> I just wanted to point out that the Boss surname appears in the 
> Volhynian church records.  I am not suggesting that an association with 
> Busse or even Boese is not possible but it does not necessarily have to 
> be blamed on an immigration agent.
Hello Don and Jerry,
the origin of the German surnames BOSS, BOSCH, BOSSE, BOTZ, B?TZ, BUSCH,
BUTSCH, BUTZ, BUSS, BUSSE and BUSKE is the same: a familiar form of the
given name Burkhard (Alemannic).
Derivates of BOSSE and BUSSE are the Alemannic surnames BOS(S)HAR(D)T,
BOSS(H)AR(D)T, BOSSARD, BOSSERT, BUSSHAR(D)T, BUSSERT
(see
http://lexikon.meyers.de/wissen/Burkhard+(Sachartikel)+Sprache%2C+Schriften
).

G?nther



From laurelei_primeau at telus.net  Fri Feb  6 06:23:34 2009
From: laurelei_primeau at telus.net (Laurelei Primeau)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 06:23:34 -0800
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Bohart ideas?.
In-Reply-To: <498C34F2.1050900@ish.de>
References: <d4c.37c71dc2.36bce1a0@aol.com> <498BA259.8070307@shaw.ca>
	<498C34F2.1050900@ish.de>
Message-ID: <20BD2BB5-654F-4690-A70A-ED04904303E8@telus.net>


Any thoughts on the name "BOHART"? I'm pretty sure it's a spelling  
variant or corruption. If it is, I don't know the root.

Thanks,
Laurelei


On 6-Feb-09, at 5:02 AM, G?nther B?hm wrote:

>
> Jerry Frank schrieb:
>> I just wanted to point out that the Boss surname appears in the
>> Volhynian church records.  I am not suggesting that an association  
>> with
>> Busse or even Boese is not possible but it does not necessarily  
>> have to
>> be blamed on an immigration agent.
> Hello Don and Jerry,
> the origin of the German surnames BOSS, BOSCH, BOSSE, BOTZ, B?TZ,  
> BUSCH,
> BUTSCH, BUTZ, BUSS, BUSSE and BUSKE is the same: a familiar form of  
> the
> given name Burkhard (Alemannic).
> Derivates of BOSSE and BUSSE are the Alemannic surnames BOS(S)HAR(D)T,
> BOSS(H)AR(D)T, BOSSARD, BOSSERT, BUSSHAR(D)T, BUSSERT
> (see
> http://lexikon.meyers.de/wissen/Burkhard+(Sachartikel)+Sprache%2C 
> +Schriften
> ).
>
> G?nther
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv

<A HREF="http://pets.care2.com/i?p=788480992">Join Care2.com's Race  
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From otto at schienke.com  Fri Feb  6 07:59:08 2009
From: otto at schienke.com (Otto)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 10:59:08 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Bohart ideas?.
In-Reply-To: <20BD2BB5-654F-4690-A70A-ED04904303E8@telus.net>
References: <d4c.37c71dc2.36bce1a0@aol.com> <498BA259.8070307@shaw.ca>
	<498C34F2.1050900@ish.de>
	<20BD2BB5-654F-4690-A70A-ED04904303E8@telus.net>
Message-ID: <7B4DF511-A7C7-4929-8939-FB5E2B60A867@schienke.com>

What type of documents was "Bohart"written in?
Where did the documents originate?

On Feb 6, 2009, at 9:23 AM, Laurelei Primeau wrote:
> Any thoughts on the name "BOHART"? I'm pretty sure it's a spelling
> variant or corruption. If it is, I don't know the root.
>
> Thanks,
> Laurelei



. . .   Otto
          " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 04, 2009-
               ________________________________
                 "The future. . . . always catches up."



From GHBoehm at ish.de  Fri Feb  6 08:19:05 2009
From: GHBoehm at ish.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=FCnther_B=F6hm?=)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 17:19:05 +0100
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Bohart ideas?.
In-Reply-To: <20BD2BB5-654F-4690-A70A-ED04904303E8@telus.net>
References: <d4c.37c71dc2.36bce1a0@aol.com>
	<498BA259.8070307@shaw.ca>	<498C34F2.1050900@ish.de>
	<20BD2BB5-654F-4690-A70A-ED04904303E8@telus.net>
Message-ID: <498C62F9.8010604@ish.de>

Laurelei Primeau schrieb:
> Any thoughts on the name "BOHART"? I'm pretty sure it's a spelling  
> variant or corruption. If it is, I don't know the root.
>
> Thanks,
> Laurelei
Hello Laurelei,
the origin of your given name might be not far from the BOHART origin.
Bouderath, 5 km southwest of Bad M?nstereifel, a component of 
Nettersheim, was first mentioned in 1020 as "Bohart" but I think that 
this "Bohart" is more likely mutilated than Bouderath.
But seriously: I think that the surname BOHART is likewise a derivate of 
Burkardt.

As to your given name:
one thing is the fairy-tale of the virgin Lore LEY combing her long fair 
hair and misleading the poor boatsmen who forget to steer their boats 
and capsize on the rocks amidst the Rhine rapids - and of course 
Heinrich Heine's poem and the German folksong.

But the other thing is etymologie:

    Loreley = "Lure Ley".
    lure (High German: lauern) = to lurk, to lie in ambush
    Ley = slate rock

It was a rock (in the Middle Rhine the rocks are all of slate - good for 
wine growing) where the nearby knights and horsemen used to hide and 
watch out for merchant ships to rob or cash customs from (which may be 
the same).

Do you know James Robinson Planch?'s poem (1827) ?

    Lureley

    Lightly o'er the rapid Rhine -
    Lureley!

    Glide we to thy rocky shrine -
    Lureley!

    Friend of all the fond and fair,
    Answer to thy pilgrim's prayer -
    Lureley!

    Like the waves that glitter here -
    Lureley!

    Bright and gentle is my dear -
    Lureley!

    But her father's heart is stone,
    Harder than thy craggy throne, -
    Lureley!

    As thy bold rock cleaves the tide -
    Lureley!

    We are parted by his pride -
    Lureley!

    Teach us, O thou friendly Fay!
    Like the waves to find a way -
    Lureley!

    Who shall chase my lady's fear -
    Lureley?

    Who shall dry my lady's tear -
    Lureley?

    Hark upon the passing wind,
    Faintly floats her answer kind! -
    "Lureley!"


By the way, LEY is an old surname (farmstead name) in this part of the 
Rhine.

G?nther




From maurmike1 at verizon.net  Fri Feb  6 08:30:16 2009
From: maurmike1 at verizon.net (MIKE MCHENRY)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 11:30:16 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Evangelisch
In-Reply-To: <498BA906.8010906@shaw.ca>
References: <F9D40FCADC574278A48739850CD9F32B@kerstinntszmpi>
	<498BA906.8010906@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <013801c98878$31e4a190$95ade4b0$@net>

If you go to http://www.ekd.de/ (German Evangelical church) it has the site
in English and German. It uses Evangelical for English and Evangelische for
German.

 
MIKE



-----Original Message-----
From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
[mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of Jerry
Frank
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 10:06 PM
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Evangelisch

Some of our readers may consider this issue to be non-relevant to the 
purpose of our list but I think it is very important to an understanding 
of historical roots and the records which we need to research so I am 
allowing the discussion to continue.  Just delete if you are not interested.

It is important to understand two things.  One is the difference between 
words used to describe a church and words used to name a church.  The 
second is the usage of terms in the 19th century versus how they are 
used today.

The term "protestant" describes all non-Catholic Christian churches.  It 
is  never applied as the name of a church (at least not for major 
denominations).  Similarly, based on the root meaning of the word, the 
term "evangelical" can apply generically to all protestant churches.  In 
modern North American context, it usually describes those protestant 
churches that have a particular fervor for outreach mission, sometimes 
with negative implications.  In descriptive context, regardless of what 
Wikipedia states, evangelisch is indeed the same as evangelical. 
Similarly, reformed can be a generic protestant church reference as 
well, with reference to Reformation origins.

Even the term "Lutheran" can have a generic context, at least as used in 
English and of course in a much narrower framework.  English texts in 
many situations will refer to German Lutherans.  In historical context, 
this is a reference to those Germans who follow Luther's teachings 
rather than Germans who are members of a church that carries "Lutheran" 
in its name.

In 19th century or earlier context, I have never seen a church book that 
is titled, "Evangelisch Lutherische Kirche".  It is always either 
Evangelisch or Evangelisch Augsburgische.  The earlier churches that 
based their theology on Luther's teachings did not include his name in 
the name of the church.  Similarly for Reformed churches, the title will 
be Evangelish Reformierte, not Evanglisch by itself nor Reformierte by 
itself.

Quoting from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09458a.htm (which is 
perhaps somewhat more reliable than Wikipedia):

"Lutheranism:  The religious belief held by the oldest and in Europe the 
most numerous of the Protestant sects, founded by the Wittenberg 
reformer, Martin Luther.  The term 'Lutheran' was first used by his 
opponents during the Leipzig Disputation in 1519, and afterwards became 
universally prevalent.  Luther preferred the designation "Evangelical", 
and TODAY [empahsis mine] the usual title of the sect is "Evangelical 
Lutheran Church". In Germany,where the Lutherans and the Reformed have 
united (since 1817), the name Lutheran has been abandoned, and the state 
Church is styled the Evangelical or the Evangelical United."

The rest of the article includes a brief, interesting history of 
Lutheranism in German territories and Poland.


Jerry Frank
Calgary, AB

Kerstin Petersen wrote:
> The "Evangelische Kirche" is a term for the Lutheran and reformed church.
You can also call it the Protestant church. "Protestantische Kirche". In the
northern part of germany there are mostly protestants and the south germany
katholics.
> The "Evangelische Kirche" is a christian church in the tradtition of the
reformation.
> 
> You cannot translate "evangelisch" to evangelical. (from Wikepedia).
> 
> Regards
> Kerstin Petersen
> Denmark
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
> 

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv



From remus at hawaii.edu  Fri Feb  6 15:54:43 2009
From: remus at hawaii.edu (William Remus)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 13:54:43 -1000
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Wittkowo
Message-ID: <fc54a26b5730f.498c4123@hawaii.edu>

I also am interested in Witkowo which is in northern Poland in the vicinity of Poznan and Gniesno. I have visited this very nice village and provides some information at

http://remus.shidler.hawaii.edu/genes/netze/Witkowo/

My intent is to find and link up all Remus families in northern Poland including Posen and West Prussia regions, so I am interested in the Johan Lorenz and Anna Catherine Remus family of Witkowo. 

All the Remus families migrated from Saxony to this region.? So I will be pleased to receive emails about any Remus ancestors you might have including those near Witkowo.

Regards Bill

********************************************************************
William Remus 
Emeritus Professor of Information Technology Management
2404 Maile Way, Honolulu, Hawaii, USA 96822
Telephone: 808-956-7608?? Fax: 808-956-9889
For Information about Bill Remus, go to his website http://remus.shidler.hawaii.edu/
********************************************************************




From jfcmurphy at ntcnet.com  Sat Feb  7 09:04:50 2009
From: jfcmurphy at ntcnet.com (James Murphy)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 12:04:50 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Karl Pidde (Pedde) of Laschink, Russia
Message-ID: <D0E962734A4A41B5BAD7B66215E989AD@hal>

Karl Pidde is my grandfather born in Laschink, Russia, which I believe to be in the Volhynia area. He was born in 1886 and immigrated to the US in 1907.  Can anyone give me information as to the location of his birthplace?  Or where to search for the names of his parents?
Thank you,
Carol Pidde Murphy
jfcmurphy at ntcnet.com

From ahnenforschung-woehrmann at gmx.de  Sun Feb  8 01:48:50 2009
From: ahnenforschung-woehrmann at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Carsten_W=F6hrmann=22?=)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 10:48:50 +0100
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] SCHMIDTKE und Mariampol
Message-ID: <20090208094850.325360@gmx.net>

Liebe Forscherfreunde,

f?r einen Kollegen habe ich die Frage, ob jemand zu den unten genannten Personen einen Ankn?pfungspunkt hat.
Bei meinen Vorfahren gibt es auch den Namen SCHMIDTKE und auch aus Mariampol. Eine Verbindung haben wir aber bisher nicht finden k?nnen.

Herzlichen Gru? aus Bielefeld
Carsten W?hrmann
www.ahnenforschung-woehrmann.de


1. Schmidtke, Johann, * ca. 1834
oo I. Karolina Schmidtke, * ca. 1835, II. Emilie Wipkes

3 Kinder von Nr. 1

2. Schmidtke, Ferdinand, * Mariampol 22.3.1854
oo Ozorkow 12.2.1878 Dorota Reinert, * Tkatschewska-Gora 14.5.1854
3. Schmidtke, Julius, Tischlermeister, * Mariampol 9.5.1860, + Anastasew 18.11.1936
oo I. Ozorkow 6.2.1898 Emma Reinert, * Malo-Gurne ca. Februar 1876, + Anastasew 8.5.1909, II. Oschin/Lentsch?tz ca. Juni 1909 Emma Gutknecht, * Lodz ca. 1891, + Anastasew 20.10.1946, III. ... Zemla
4. Schmidtke, Eduard

3 Kinder von Nr. 2

5. Schmidtke, Adolf
6. Schmidtke, Alwine
7. Schmidtke, Traugott

12 Kinder von Nr. 3

8. Schmidtke, Theodor, F?rbermeister, * Anastasew 18.2.1899, + Walsrode 21.9.1949
oo Alexandrow 17.11.1923 Emma Klose, * Alt-Adamow 29.10.1899, + Hannover 22.1.1985
9. Schmidtke, Ida, * Anastasew 24.9.1901, + Pulheim 12.2.1980
oo Huta Bardzinska 30.6.1923 Adolf Adam Sch?fer, Tischler, * Dombrowka Nadolna 22.2.1897, + Frechen 2.11.1983
10. Schmidtke, Olga, * Anastasew 9.3.1904, + W?rth 6.1.1985
oo Anastasew 16.10.1926 Gustav Reimann, F?rber, * Alt-Adamow 5.3.1900, + W?rth 29.7.1967
11. Schmidtke, Marta, * Anastasew 27.5.1910, + Bergisch-Gladbach 31.3.1997
oo Lodz 8.5.1938 Leopold Preis, Metallarbeiter in Giesserei, * Andrejow 15.11.1913, + Bergisch-Gladbach 4.9.1999
12. Schmidtke, Engelhardt, * Anastasew 13.3.1912, + 1.8.1993
oo Ursula Kappes, * ca. 1917, + ca. Feb 2000
13. Schmidtke, Else, * ca. 1914, + ca. 1935
14. Schmidtke, Wanda, * Anastasew 8.9.1916
oo Ludwig Oelke, Weber sp?ter Polizist, * Alexandria 18.6.1913, + Parnapol 7.7.1943
15. Schmidtke, Gertrud, * Anastasew 17.12.1922
oo Escher 8.10.1948 Johann Busch, Landwirt, * Konstaninowka 12.1.1921, + Lindhorst 13.5.1983
16. Schmidtke, Irma, * ca. 1924, + ca. 1930
17. Schmidtke, Edith, * 11.10.1926, + 14.3.1997
oo Harry Jobs, * 20.10.1926, + 10.1.1991
18. Schmidtke, Robert, * Anastasew, + ca. 1917
19. Schmidtke, Selma, * Anastasew, + Anastasew


From dabookk54 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  8 09:20:08 2009
From: dabookk54 at yahoo.com (Karl Krueger)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 09:20:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] SCHMIDTKE und Mariampol
In-Reply-To: <20090208094850.325360@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <256447.67170.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

To translate for those who can't understand, Carsten is hoping for additional leads on some of his ancestors. He has some ancestors by the name of Schmidtke who lived in Mariampol but having trouble finding further connections. If anyone has more information on the people he list below please contact him. Carsten can communicate in English as well.

--- On Sun, 2/8/09, "Carsten W?hrmann" <ahnenforschung-woehrmann at gmx.de> wrote:
From: "Carsten W?hrmann" <ahnenforschung-woehrmann at gmx.de>
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] SCHMIDTKE und Mariampol
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Date: Sunday, February 8, 2009, 4:48 AM

Liebe Forscherfreunde,

f?r einen Kollegen habe ich die Frage, ob jemand zu den unten genannten
Personen einen Ankn?pfungspunkt hat.
Bei meinen Vorfahren gibt es auch den Namen SCHMIDTKE und auch aus Mariampol.
Eine Verbindung haben wir aber bisher nicht finden k?nnen.

Herzlichen Gru? aus Bielefeld
Carsten W?hrmann
www.ahnenforschung-woehrmann.de


1. Schmidtke, Johann, * ca. 1834
oo I. Karolina Schmidtke, * ca. 1835, II. Emilie Wipkes

3 Kinder von Nr. 1

2. Schmidtke, Ferdinand, * Mariampol 22.3.1854
oo Ozorkow 12.2.1878 Dorota Reinert, * Tkatschewska-Gora 14.5.1854
3. Schmidtke, Julius, Tischlermeister, * Mariampol 9.5.1860, + Anastasew
18.11.1936
oo I. Ozorkow 6.2.1898 Emma Reinert, * Malo-Gurne ca. Februar 1876, + Anastasew
8.5.1909, II. Oschin/Lentsch?tz ca. Juni 1909 Emma Gutknecht, * Lodz ca. 1891,
+ Anastasew 20.10.1946, III. ... Zemla
4. Schmidtke, Eduard

3 Kinder von Nr. 2

5. Schmidtke, Adolf
6. Schmidtke, Alwine
7. Schmidtke, Traugott

12 Kinder von Nr. 3

8. Schmidtke, Theodor, F?rbermeister, * Anastasew 18.2.1899, + Walsrode
21.9.1949
oo Alexandrow 17.11.1923 Emma Klose, * Alt-Adamow 29.10.1899, + Hannover
22.1.1985
9. Schmidtke, Ida, * Anastasew 24.9.1901, + Pulheim 12.2.1980
oo Huta Bardzinska 30.6.1923 Adolf Adam Sch?fer, Tischler, * Dombrowka Nadolna
22.2.1897, + Frechen 2.11.1983
10. Schmidtke, Olga, * Anastasew 9.3.1904, + W?rth 6.1.1985
oo Anastasew 16.10.1926 Gustav Reimann, F?rber, * Alt-Adamow 5.3.1900, +
W?rth 29.7.1967
11. Schmidtke, Marta, * Anastasew 27.5.1910, + Bergisch-Gladbach 31.3.1997
oo Lodz 8.5.1938 Leopold Preis, Metallarbeiter in Giesserei, * Andrejow
15.11.1913, + Bergisch-Gladbach 4.9.1999
12. Schmidtke, Engelhardt, * Anastasew 13.3.1912, + 1.8.1993
oo Ursula Kappes, * ca. 1917, + ca. Feb 2000
13. Schmidtke, Else, * ca. 1914, + ca. 1935
14. Schmidtke, Wanda, * Anastasew 8.9.1916
oo Ludwig Oelke, Weber sp?ter Polizist, * Alexandria 18.6.1913, + Parnapol
7.7.1943
15. Schmidtke, Gertrud, * Anastasew 17.12.1922
oo Escher 8.10.1948 Johann Busch, Landwirt, * Konstaninowka 12.1.1921, +
Lindhorst 13.5.1983
16. Schmidtke, Irma, * ca. 1924, + ca. 1930
17. Schmidtke, Edith, * 11.10.1926, + 14.3.1997
oo Harry Jobs, * 20.10.1926, + 10.1.1991
18. Schmidtke, Robert, * Anastasew, + ca. 1917
19. Schmidtke, Selma, * Anastasew, + Anastasew

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv



      

From nancygertner at mac.com  Sun Feb  8 09:30:53 2009
From: nancygertner at mac.com (Nancy Gertner)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 11:30:53 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] SCHMIDTKE und Mariampol - or Mariupol?
In-Reply-To: <256447.67170.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <256447.67170.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003698A2-D9F1-46EF-8630-CEE64FADD467@mac.com>

Mariampol or Mariupol?

for origin of Schmidtke.

Nancy

On Feb 8, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Karl Krueger wrote:

> To translate for those who can't understand, Carsten is hoping for  
> additional leads on some of his ancestors. He has some ancestors by  
> the name of Schmidtke who lived in Mariampol but having trouble  
> finding further connections. If anyone has more information on the  
> people he list below please contact him. Carsten can communicate in  
> English as well.
>
> --- On Sun, 2/8/09, "Carsten W?hrmann" <ahnenforschung- 
> woehrmann at gmx.de> wrote:
> From: "Carsten W?hrmann" <ahnenforschung-woehrmann at gmx.de>
> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] SCHMIDTKE und Mariampol
> To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
> Date: Sunday, February 8, 2009, 4:48 AM
>
> Liebe Forscherfreunde,
>
> f?r einen Kollegen habe ich die Frage, ob jemand zu den unten  
> genannten
> Personen einen Ankn?pfungspunkt hat.
> Bei meinen Vorfahren gibt es auch den Namen SCHMIDTKE und auch aus  
> Mariampol.
> Eine Verbindung haben wir aber bisher nicht finden k?nnen.
>
> Herzlichen Gru? aus Bielefeld
> Carsten W?hrmann
> www.ahnenforschung-woehrmann.de
>
>
> 1. Schmidtke, Johann, * ca. 1834
> oo I. Karolina Schmidtke, * ca. 1835, II. Emilie Wipkes
>
> 3 Kinder von Nr. 1
>
> 2. Schmidtke, Ferdinand, * Mariampol 22.3.1854
> oo Ozorkow 12.2.1878 Dorota Reinert, * Tkatschewska-Gora 14.5.1854
> 3. Schmidtke, Julius, Tischlermeister, * Mariampol 9.5.1860, +  
> Anastasew
> 18.11.1936
> oo I. Ozorkow 6.2.1898 Emma Reinert, * Malo-Gurne ca. Februar 1876,  
> + Anastasew
> 8.5.1909, II. Oschin/Lentsch?tz ca. Juni 1909 Emma Gutknecht, *  
> Lodz ca. 1891,
> + Anastasew 20.10.1946, III. ... Zemla
> 4. Schmidtke, Eduard
>
> 3 Kinder von Nr. 2
>
> 5. Schmidtke, Adolf
> 6. Schmidtke, Alwine
> 7. Schmidtke, Traugott
>
> 12 Kinder von Nr. 3
>
> 8. Schmidtke, Theodor, F?rbermeister, * Anastasew 18.2.1899, +  
> Walsrode
> 21.9.1949
> oo Alexandrow 17.11.1923 Emma Klose, * Alt-Adamow 29.10.1899, +  
> Hannover
> 22.1.1985
> 9. Schmidtke, Ida, * Anastasew 24.9.1901, + Pulheim 12.2.1980
> oo Huta Bardzinska 30.6.1923 Adolf Adam Sch?fer, Tischler, *  
> Dombrowka Nadolna
> 22.2.1897, + Frechen 2.11.1983
> 10. Schmidtke, Olga, * Anastasew 9.3.1904, + W?rth 6.1.1985
> oo Anastasew 16.10.1926 Gustav Reimann, F?rber, * Alt-Adamow  
> 5.3.1900, +
> W?rth 29.7.1967
> 11. Schmidtke, Marta, * Anastasew 27.5.1910, + Bergisch-Gladbach  
> 31.3.1997
> oo Lodz 8.5.1938 Leopold Preis, Metallarbeiter in Giesserei, *  
> Andrejow
> 15.11.1913, + Bergisch-Gladbach 4.9.1999
> 12. Schmidtke, Engelhardt, * Anastasew 13.3.1912, + 1.8.1993
> oo Ursula Kappes, * ca. 1917, + ca. Feb 2000
> 13. Schmidtke, Else, * ca. 1914, + ca. 1935
> 14. Schmidtke, Wanda, * Anastasew 8.9.1916
> oo Ludwig Oelke, Weber sp?ter Polizist, * Alexandria 18.6.1913, +  
> Parnapol
> 7.7.1943
> 15. Schmidtke, Gertrud, * Anastasew 17.12.1922
> oo Escher 8.10.1948 Johann Busch, Landwirt, * Konstaninowka  
> 12.1.1921, +
> Lindhorst 13.5.1983
> 16. Schmidtke, Irma, * ca. 1924, + ca. 1930
> 17. Schmidtke, Edith, * 11.10.1926, + 14.3.1997
> oo Harry Jobs, * 20.10.1926, + 10.1.1991
> 18. Schmidtke, Robert, * Anastasew, + ca. 1917
> 19. Schmidtke, Selma, * Anastasew, + Anastasew
>
>




From cmduff at redwing.net  Sun Feb  8 19:00:14 2009
From: cmduff at redwing.net (Carol Duff)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 21:00:14 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] colonists
Message-ID: 18a58c1c8a0c7b34501c61de10c0b4e1


Is there any place that lists German colonies in Volhynia? Related is 
the fact that Wilhelm Pflugrad, lay leader,  seems to do the baptisms in 
Sapust and some other colonies. Carol


From shoning at q.com  Sun Feb  8 21:03:49 2009
From: shoning at q.com (George Shoning)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 22:03:49 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] colonists
In-Reply-To: 18a58c1c8a0c7b34501c61de10c0b4e1
References: 18a58c1c8a0c7b34501c61de10c0b4e1
Message-ID: <BAY140-W31F4E854A095B8A9269942BEBC0@phx.gbl>


On occasions I have used Karl Stumpp's map, "Karte der deutschen Siedlungen in ukrainisch Wolhynien".  It shows the location of many German settlements, although the names are spelled in German.
 
George> Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 21:00:14 -0600> From: cmduff at redwing.net> To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] colonists> > > Is there any place that lists German colonies in Volhynia? Related is > the fact that Wilhelm Pflugrad, lay leader, seems to do the baptisms in > Sapust and some other colonies. Carol> > _______________________________________________> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv

From Gerhard.Koenig at gmx.net  Mon Feb  9 19:39:13 2009
From: Gerhard.Koenig at gmx.net (Gerhard Koenig)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 04:39:13 +0100
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] colonists & teacher PFLUGRADT
Message-ID: <20090210033913.141090@gmx.net>

Carol,

> ... lists German colonies in Volhynia?

# West part of Volhynia (Lueck 1927)

overview (German):
http://www.wolhynien.de/geography/orte/ind_lueck.htm
village index: 
http://www.wolhynien.de/pdf/1927Lueck.pdf
map:
http://www.wolhynien.de/images/Lueck1927_gr.jpg

# East part of Volhynia (Stumpp 1939)
overview (German):
http://www.wolhynien.de/geography/orte/ind_stumpp.htm
village index:
http://www.wolhynien.de/pdf/1939Stumpp.pdf
map:
http://www.wolhynien.de/images/Karte_OstWolhynien_Stumpp.gif

> Wilhelm Pflugrad ... seems to do the baptisms in Sapust and ...

A short overview about teacher Wilhelm PFLUGRADT you can read in our German VolynWiki: 
http://wiki.wolhynien.net/index.php/PFLUGRADT%2C_Wilhelm

gerhard
-- 
Mitmachen + Nachlesen - http://wolhynien.de
Informieren + Fragen - http://forum.wolhynien.net
Museum in Linstow - http://umsiedlermuseum.wolhynien.de
Histor. Verein - http://historischerverein.wolhynien.de
--
Take part + Read - http://wolhynien.de
Informations + Questions - http://forum.wolhynien.net
Museum in Linstow - http://umsiedlermuseum.wolhynien.de
Historical Society - http://historischerverein.wolhynien.de
--

Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger01


From gothdarrel at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 20:02:55 2009
From: gothdarrel at yahoo.com (Darrel Goth)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 20:02:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] colonists & teacher PFLUGRADT
Message-ID: <53754.55715.qm@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Letter 1927 from Floretine (Peitsch) Pflugradt:
?
Letter Translated by Sam Hofer of Graceoale (Graceland) Colony, Lake County, SD.
Sam Hofer translated it the best that he could.
?
This letter was forwarded from? Mrs. Henry (Maser)?Rudasky, Langenburg, Sask ?to Pauline? (Peitsch) Weber in 1928.
?
7 Feb. 1927
Too start with too let you know how I am. Beloved, Brother-in-Law, and Brother, and also Mother-in-Law that we are, thank God so far healthy and alive yet. That we from God the Father wish you.
Want too tell you further how the weather is, there hasen?t been a strong frost yet after three weeks there was frost 8 days that we couldn?t move good. But then it got nicer. Want too let you know about the Grain Prices.
By us everthing is so expensive.
2. Bushel of Rye.2 Gold Rubel
1. Bush Wheat, 2 Rubel .30 copper
1. Bushel Barley. 1. Rubel
1. Bush Oats, One Pound potatoes 40 K
1. lb Butter. 40 K.
These prices are all figured in Russian money.
Further no much more to talk about the crop.
We want to ask you if Karl Maser still alive is, We have wrote him twice and he hasn?t wrote back. Also haven?t heard from Krieger, or from Ofsoger. Evidently they must have died already.
Want to let you about the Deutsher kids. While today Edward word to us came the brother Karl has died from the War and the oldest son finely died in 1917 and daughter Tanti Frisbine died in 1923. One of the boys married a Russian girl. The August not married yet. And the younger girl married a widower with 2 children by the name of William Smith. The youngest son Edward hasn?t married yet.
Want to close my letter now for this time. Bother-in-law, and brother, and dauhter-in-law and her 12 children. Want to greet you thousand times from our children, Olga and Aurther.
Write as soon as possible.
?
Edward and Florentine Pflugradt
?
Address
P Newkleba Deison, Pflugold Kol Telenka Tnoyei Joafiun Pasijort Kanines Wolh Polland.

I believe that Eduard (Edward) was the son of Wilhelm Pflugradt.

Darrel Goth 
2000?W 6th St #101 
Sioux Falls, SD 57104 
605-291-9423 
gothdarrel at yahoo.com
?
Volunteers of America-Dakotas
Group Life Supervisor-West Oaks Crisis Diversion Program
http://voa-dakotas.org/
?

VFW Ronald Westby Post 2638 Commander 
Madison, South Dakota 57042

Lake County DAV Van Transportation Coordinator
http://www.lakecountysd.com/veteranservices/dav_van.html

--- On Mon, 2/9/09, Gerhard Koenig <Gerhard.Koenig at gmx.net> wrote:


From: Gerhard Koenig <Gerhard.Koenig at gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] colonists & teacher PFLUGRADT
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 9:39 PM


Carol,

> ... lists German colonies in Volhynia?

# West part of Volhynia (Lueck 1927)

overview (German):
http://www.wolhynien.de/geography/orte/ind_lueck.htm
village index: 
http://www.wolhynien.de/pdf/1927Lueck.pdf
map:
http://www.wolhynien.de/images/Lueck1927_gr.jpg

# East part of Volhynia (Stumpp 1939)
overview (German):
http://www.wolhynien.de/geography/orte/ind_stumpp.htm
village index:
http://www.wolhynien.de/pdf/1939Stumpp.pdf
map:
http://www.wolhynien.de/images/Karte_OstWolhynien_Stumpp.gif

> Wilhelm Pflugrad ... seems to do the baptisms in Sapust and ...

A short overview about teacher Wilhelm PFLUGRADT you can read in our German VolynWiki: 
http://wiki.wolhynien.net/index.php/PFLUGRADT%2C_Wilhelm

gerhard
-- 
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--
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From worth_a at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 15 12:20:25 2009
From: worth_a at yahoo.com (Worth Anderson)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 12:20:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Polish article about Olendrzy
In-Reply-To: <20090210033913.141090@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <134705.62219.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

The link below is to a recent article that appeared in Gazeta Wyborcza (one of Poland's major dailies) about the German settlement along the Vistula between Plock and Warsaw -- especially in Wiaczemin.

<http://miasta.gazeta.pl/plock/1,35710,5693764,Dzis_prawdziwych_Olendrow_juz_nie_ma.html>


      


From worth_a at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 15 12:46:41 2009
From: worth_a at yahoo.com (Worth Anderson)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 12:46:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Free English language book on German villages
	in Mazovia
In-Reply-To: <134705.62219.qm@web110403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <756205.64846.qm@web110413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

In 2004, Polish historian Jerzy Szalygin published in Polish, "Catalogue of monuments of Dutch Colonization in Mazovia."  This book lists alphabetically each German village, usually with a map excerpt to show the location, and information (often with pictures) on any surviving pre-War German buildings.  The excerpt for Rakowo appears at the bottom of this e-mail, to give a flavor of the information.

I thought this was an amazing source when I first learned about it, but it gets better.  Szalygin's book has been translated into English, and is available as a free download at: <http://holland.org.pl/art.php?kat=art&dzial=ogolne&id=ebook&lang=en>.  While you're at the website, poke around; it is full of interesting information.

Worth

RAKOWO, gm. Mala Wies, pow. plocki, woj. mazowieckie Rakowo - Mapa Gilly-Crona - 1796, Mapa Gilly - 1803, Mapa Kwatermistrzostwa - 1830, Mapa Chrzanowskiego - 1848)
The village was mentioned for the first time in 1426. It was settled by the Dutch colonists at the end of the 18th century. In 1888, it had 25 houses, 311 residents, and 701 morga of land (including 107 morga of wasteland). It also had a watermill.  Rakowo is a linear village located on the northern side of the Vistula, to the south of the Zakroczym - Plock road, along an east-west line, and to the west of the village of Drwaly. The homesteds are built on a rectangular plan with the longer side adjoining the village road on both southern and northern sides.
The cultural landscape is very well preserved with a detectable field layout and willows planted on balks.  Majority of homesteads are situated on man-made hillocks with driveways running perpendicularly to the main road. Trees and bushes are still present on the eastern side. Several examples of traditional Dutch buildings have survived including the cemetery.


      


From FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca  Sun Feb 15 16:20:44 2009
From: FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 17:20:44 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Free English language book on German
 villages in Mazovia
In-Reply-To: <756205.64846.qm@web110413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <756205.64846.qm@web110413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4998B15C.3020706@shaw.ca>

I have been debating myself for some time now whether to include that 
link from our website or not. The entire book is a very long download. 
If you want to browse through the village descriptions yourself, start at:

http://holland.org.pl/art.php?kat=obiekt&id=1&lang=en

Opposite the search box on the right side you will see an arrow. Click 
that to work your way through the villages. You can also use the search 
box to find a specific village but it will require an exact spelling 
match and you will struggle with switching between Polish and English 
language pages.

The reason I have been reluctant to include the link even though some of 
the villages details are excellent, is that the entire website and book 
are based on the blatantly false premise that these are Dutch (Holland) 
villages. Almost every village is described as being founded by Dutch 
Colonists though a handful do make reference to Evangelical (Lutheran) 
Germans. In fact, the opposite is true. 99% of the villages shown were 
founded or settled by Germans. Only a small handful had Dutch 
(Mennonite) settlers. Lest someone assume that this is a Dutch vs. 
Deutsch confusion, the Polish language uses two distinctly different 
words to describe them so confusion is unlikely - Holenderski vs. 
Niemieckie. Further more, the website name clearly references Holland.

In the introduction, this statement is made:
"The Dutch were the first colonists. In the 18th century, they were 
followed by German farmers from Lower Germany as well as Polish 
peasants. The Dutch settlers were nicknamed Ol?der, which was the 
Polonized version of the noun "Dutchman" ("Holender" in Polish). Ol?der 
signified not only the nationality of the settlers, but also the system 
of farming that originated in Holland. The system, which granted 
considerable freedom to the colonists, was based on the perpetual lease 
of land, with only cash rent payable to the landowner."

The author has the right idea but seems to forget that the term which 
describes the land ownership / village government style instituted by 
the Dutch Mennonites in Prussian regions can also apply to any other 
ethnic group, German, Polish or other, that operate under similar rules. 
The fact that there were numerous Hollendry or Hollendry style villages 
along Wisla River does not mean that all those villages originated as 
the result of Dutch settlement.

I have tried to correspond with the authors and supporters of this site. 
All addresses, including that of the webmaster, result in bounces. It's 
a shame that such quality presentation is tainted by such very poor and 
far reaching research.

Bottom line - some good content in this material regarding the villages 
but treat most references to Dutch as being German.

Jerry Frank
Calgary, AB



Worth Anderson wrote:
> In 2004, Polish historian Jerzy Szalygin published in Polish, "Catalogue of monuments of Dutch Colonization in Mazovia."  This book lists alphabetically each German village, usually with a map excerpt to show the location, and information (often with pictures) on any surviving pre-War German buildings.  The excerpt for Rakowo appears at the bottom of this e-mail, to give a flavor of the information.
>
> I thought this was an amazing source when I first learned about it, but it gets better.  Szalygin's book has been translated into English, and is available as a free download at: <http://holland.org.pl/art.php?kat=art&dzial=ogolne&id=ebook&lang=en>.  While you're at the website, poke around; it is full of interesting information.
>
> Worth
>
>
>   


From worth_a at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 15 22:37:21 2009
From: worth_a at yahoo.com (Worth Anderson)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 22:37:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Free English language book on German
	villages in Mazovia
In-Reply-To: <4998B15C.3020706@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <857551.44978.qm@web110413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Jerry:  You are quite right that "Dutch" seems to be misused in the English language version.  You are also right that this isn't a "Dutch" vs. "Deutsch" confusion, but I think it is the result of another translation problem: two different but related usages of the word "Holender" or "Olender" in Polish.

The first meaning is people from the Netherlands, such as the Frisian and Flemish Mennonites who started arriving in Poland in the 1500s and settled in villages where -- unlike their enserfed Polish neighbors -- they enjoyed several personal and collective freedoms.  They lent their name to this type of village organization.  The governing law was called the "Holender" law, and such villages "Holendry" or "Olendry."

The second meaning is people who lived in villages organized under the Holender law, regardless of their ethnicity.  The author explicity acknowledges in the introduction to the Polish version that ethnic Germans and Poles, as well as Dutch, lived in "olendry."  It is in this sense that they are referred to as "Olendrzy."

The first meaning of Olender -- people from the Netherlands -- can be appropriately translated into English as "Dutch."  The second meaning -- people living in villages organized under the Olender law -- should not be.  That is the error the translator made.

But I do have some sympathy for the translator, as there doesn't seem to be any other term in English that succintly captures that second meaning.  The German term "Niederunger" is not a substitute, as it differentiates one set of German colonists from colonists with origins in Wuerttemberg or Saxony.  Moreover, Niederungers, Saxons and Wuerttembergers could all live in "Olendry" villages, and -- while Germans were surely the overwhelming majority of such colonists -- there were nevertheless some ethnic Poles and Netherlanders among them.

I don't think this translation difficulty signals a problem with the scholarship itself.  I spot checked the Polish language page for a few of the villages I'm most familiar with (Zakrzewo, Rakowo, Sady, Bialobrzeg, Wykowo, Leszyno and Swiniary) and in each case it seemed clear in context that the second meaning of Holender was intended.  Indeed, the Swiniary page states, "The first Holender homesteads in this village, named for the first time in the 14th Century, were founded in 1788.  'Clearing away' overgrowth was agreed to by Marcin Datzlaw 'a German citizen of the village of Sady." That makes it pretty clear the author was aware he was not just dealing with people from the Netherlands, a point he makes himself in the introduction.

I'm curious how other list members handle this translation issue when writing on this topic in English.  I think my preferred approached would be to explain the (second) meaning of Olender and Olendry, and then use that term without translating it. 

Worth


--- On Sun, 2/15/09, Jerry Frank <FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca> wrote:

> From: Jerry Frank <FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca>
> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Free English language book on German villages in Mazovia
> To: worth_a at yahoo.com
> Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
> Date: Sunday, February 15, 2009, 7:20 PM
> I have been debating myself for some time now whether to
> include that link from our website or not. The entire book
> is a very long download. If you want to browse through the
> village descriptions yourself, start at:
> 
> http://holland.org.pl/art.php?kat=obiekt&id=1&lang=en
> 
> Opposite the search box on the right side you will see an
> arrow. Click that to work your way through the villages. You
> can also use the search box to find a specific village but
> it will require an exact spelling match and you will
> struggle with switching between Polish and English language
> pages.
> 
> The reason I have been reluctant to include the link even
> though some of the villages details are excellent, is that
> the entire website and book are based on the blatantly false
> premise that these are Dutch (Holland) villages. Almost
> every village is described as being founded by Dutch
> Colonists though a handful do make reference to Evangelical
> (Lutheran) Germans. In fact, the opposite is true. 99% of
> the villages shown were founded or settled by Germans. Only
> a small handful had Dutch (Mennonite) settlers. Lest someone
> assume that this is a Dutch vs. Deutsch confusion, the
> Polish language uses two distinctly different words to
> describe them so confusion is unlikely - Holenderski vs.
> Niemieckie. Further more, the website name clearly
> references Holland.
> 
> In the introduction, this statement is made:
> "The Dutch were the first colonists. In the 18th
> century, they were followed by German farmers from Lower
> Germany as well as Polish peasants. The Dutch settlers were
> nicknamed Ol?der, which was the Polonized version of the
> noun "Dutchman" ("Holender" in Polish).
> Ol?der signified not only the nationality of the settlers,
> but also the system of farming that originated in Holland.
> The system, which granted considerable freedom to the
> colonists, was based on the perpetual lease of land, with
> only cash rent payable to the landowner."
> 
> The author has the right idea but seems to forget that the
> term which describes the land ownership / village government
> style instituted by the Dutch Mennonites in Prussian regions
> can also apply to any other ethnic group, German, Polish or
> other, that operate under similar rules. The fact that there
> were numerous Hollendry or Hollendry style villages along
> Wisla River does not mean that all those villages originated
> as the result of Dutch settlement.
> 
> I have tried to correspond with the authors and supporters
> of this site. All addresses, including that of the
> webmaster, result in bounces. It's a shame that such
> quality presentation is tainted by such very poor and far
> reaching research.
> 
> Bottom line - some good content in this material regarding
> the villages but treat most references to Dutch as being
> German.
> 
> Jerry Frank
> Calgary, AB
> 
> 
> 
> Worth Anderson wrote:
> > In 2004, Polish historian Jerzy Szalygin published in
> Polish, "Catalogue of monuments of Dutch Colonization
> in Mazovia."  This book lists alphabetically each
> German village, usually with a map excerpt to show the
> location, and information (often with pictures) on any
> surviving pre-War German buildings.  The excerpt for Rakowo
> appears at the bottom of this e-mail, to give a flavor of
> the information.
> > 
> > I thought this was an amazing source when I first
> learned about it, but it gets better.  Szalygin's book
> has been translated into English, and is available as a free
> download at:
> <http://holland.org.pl/art.php?kat=art&dzial=ogolne&id=ebook&lang=en>.
>  While you're at the website, poke around; it is full of
> interesting information.
> > 
> > Worth
> > 
> > 
> >


      



From bronklimach at gmail.com  Mon Feb 16 05:23:33 2009
From: bronklimach at gmail.com (Bronwyn Klimach)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 13:23:33 +0000
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Free English language book on German
	villages in Mazovia
In-Reply-To: <857551.44978.qm@web110413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <4998B15C.3020706@shaw.ca>
	<857551.44978.qm@web110413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <129d86830902160523g4e87512esb1c4561fdeb33b72@mail.gmail.com>

Worth,
Thank you for this fascinating link.
As I started reading I wondered where all these Dutch people came from, so
I'm pleased to read the comments you and Jerry have posted, esp relating to
Olender Law and German Law.  Some most unfortunate translation seems to have
occurred.
Am I correct in thinking that the villages are pesented in alphabetical
order, but there is no index?
Anyone with an interest in any of these villages should be pleased to
find the information provided.
Kind regards,
Bronwyn.
On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Worth Anderson <worth_a at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Jerry:  You are quite right that "Dutch" seems to be misused in the English
> language version.  You are also right that this isn't a "Dutch" vs.
> "Deutsch" confusion, but I think it is the result of another translation
> problem: two different but related usages of the word "Holender" or
> "Olender" in Polish.
>
> The first meaning is people from the Netherlands, such as the Frisian and
> Flemish Mennonites who started arriving in Poland in the 1500s and settled
> in villages where -- unlike their enserfed Polish neighbors -- they enjoyed
> several personal and collective freedoms.  They lent their name to this type
> of village organization.  The governing law was called the "Holender" law,
> and such villages "Holendry" or "Olendry."
>
> The second meaning is people who lived in villages organized under the
> Holender law, regardless of their ethnicity.  The author explicity
> acknowledges in the introduction to the Polish version that ethnic Germans
> and Poles, as well as Dutch, lived in "olendry."  It is in this sense that
> they are referred to as "Olendrzy."
>
> The first meaning of Olender -- people from the Netherlands -- can be
> appropriately translated into English as "Dutch."  The second meaning --
> people living in villages organized under the Olender law -- should not be.
>  That is the error the translator made.
>
> But I do have some sympathy for the translator, as there doesn't seem to be
> any other term in English that succintly captures that second meaning.  The
> German term "Niederunger" is not a substitute, as it differentiates one set
> of German colonists from colonists with origins in Wuerttemberg or Saxony.
>  Moreover, Niederungers, Saxons and Wuerttembergers could all live in
> "Olendry" villages, and -- while Germans were surely the overwhelming
> majority of such colonists -- there were nevertheless some ethnic Poles and
> Netherlanders among them.
>
> I don't think this translation difficulty signals a problem with the
> scholarship itself.  I spot checked the Polish language page for a few of
> the villages I'm most familiar with (Zakrzewo, Rakowo, Sady, Bialobrzeg,
> Wykowo, Leszyno and Swiniary) and in each case it seemed clear in context
> that the second meaning of Holender was intended.  Indeed, the Swiniary page
> states, "The first Holender homesteads in this village, named for the first
> time in the 14th Century, were founded in 1788.  'Clearing away' overgrowth
> was agreed to by Marcin Datzlaw 'a German citizen of the village of Sady."
> That makes it pretty clear the author was aware he was not just dealing with
> people from the Netherlands, a point he makes himself in the introduction.
>
> I'm curious how other list members handle this translation issue when
> writing on this topic in English.  I think my preferred approached would be
> to explain the (second) meaning of Olender and Olendry, and then use that
> term without translating it.
>
> Worth
>
>
> --- On Sun, 2/15/09, Jerry Frank <FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> > From: Jerry Frank <FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca>
> > Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Free English language book on German
> villages in Mazovia
> > To: worth_a at yahoo.com
> > Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
> > Date: Sunday, February 15, 2009, 7:20 PM
>  > I have been debating myself for some time now whether to
> > include that link from our website or not. The entire book
> > is a very long download. If you want to browse through the
> > village descriptions yourself, start at:
> >
> > http://holland.org.pl/art.php?kat=obiekt&id=1&lang=en
> >
> > Opposite the search box on the right side you will see an
> > arrow. Click that to work your way through the villages. You
> > can also use the search box to find a specific village but
> > it will require an exact spelling match and you will
> > struggle with switching between Polish and English language
> > pages.
> >
> > The reason I have been reluctant to include the link even
> > though some of the villages details are excellent, is that
> > the entire website and book are based on the blatantly false
> > premise that these are Dutch (Holland) villages. Almost
> > every village is described as being founded by Dutch
> > Colonists though a handful do make reference to Evangelical
> > (Lutheran) Germans. In fact, the opposite is true. 99% of
> > the villages shown were founded or settled by Germans. Only
> > a small handful had Dutch (Mennonite) settlers. Lest someone
> > assume that this is a Dutch vs. Deutsch confusion, the
> > Polish language uses two distinctly different words to
> > describe them so confusion is unlikely - Holenderski vs.
> > Niemieckie. Further more, the website name clearly
> > references Holland.
> >
> > In the introduction, this statement is made:
> > "The Dutch were the first colonists. In the 18th
> > century, they were followed by German farmers from Lower
> > Germany as well as Polish peasants. The Dutch settlers were
> > nicknamed Ol?der, which was the Polonized version of the
> > noun "Dutchman" ("Holender" in Polish).
> > Ol?der signified not only the nationality of the settlers,
> > but also the system of farming that originated in Holland.
> > The system, which granted considerable freedom to the
> > colonists, was based on the perpetual lease of land, with
> > only cash rent payable to the landowner."
> >
> > The author has the right idea but seems to forget that the
> > term which describes the land ownership / village government
> > style instituted by the Dutch Mennonites in Prussian regions
> > can also apply to any other ethnic group, German, Polish or
> > other, that operate under similar rules. The fact that there
> > were numerous Hollendry or Hollendry style villages along
> > Wisla River does not mean that all those villages originated
> > as the result of Dutch settlement.
> >
> > I have tried to correspond with the authors and supporters
> > of this site. All addresses, including that of the
> > webmaster, result in bounces. It's a shame that such
> > quality presentation is tainted by such very poor and far
> > reaching research.
> >
> > Bottom line - some good content in this material regarding
> > the villages but treat most references to Dutch as being
> > German.
> >
> > Jerry Frank
> > Calgary, AB
> >
> >
> >
> > Worth Anderson wrote:
> > > In 2004, Polish historian Jerzy Szalygin published in
> > Polish, "Catalogue of monuments of Dutch Colonization
> > in Mazovia."  This book lists alphabetically each
> > German village, usually with a map excerpt to show the
> > location, and information (often with pictures) on any
> > surviving pre-War German buildings.  The excerpt for Rakowo
> > appears at the bottom of this e-mail, to give a flavor of
> > the information.
> > >
> > > I thought this was an amazing source when I first
> > learned about it, but it gets better.  Szalygin's book
> > has been translated into English, and is available as a free
> > download at:
> > <http://holland.org.pl/art.php?kat=art&dzial=ogolne&id=ebook&lang=en>.
> >  While you're at the website, poke around; it is full of
> > interesting information.
> > >
> > > Worth
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
>


From bronklimach at gmail.com  Mon Feb 16 07:05:42 2009
From: bronklimach at gmail.com (Bronwyn Klimach)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 15:05:42 +0000
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Free English language book on German
	villages in Mazovia - Olender and its meaning(s)
Message-ID: <129d86830902160705i33341753v82f9a2d94db2e919@mail.gmail.com>

 http://www.beactivetour.com/ciekawostki.html
Under the title 'Interesting Facts' Lukasz writes:
The Olender (Old-Lutheran) colonization in Pozna? /Posen/ Province
Olender settlement in the area around Nekla started in the middle of the
18th century. German peasants (followers of Old-Lutheran denomination) were
settled there under Dutch law and founded Nekielskie Ol?dry, presently
called Nekielka. They arrived in the area from the Brandenbug - Wielkopolska
border and settlements estabished earlier west from Pozna?. After Prussia
started to occupy this Polish area in 1793, the settlement was renamed Nekla
Hauland.
Lukasz goes on to give succinct reasons for Olender settlement, and features
of it, etc.
Hopefully this will extend the understanding of Olender!
Kind regards,
Bronwyn.**

On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Worth Anderson <worth_a at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Jerry:  You are quite right that "Dutch" seems to be misused in the English
> language version.  You are also right that this isn't a "Dutch" vs.
> "Deutsch" confusion, but I think it is the result of another translation
> problem: two different but related usages of the word "Holender" or
> "Olender" in Polish.
>
> The first meaning is people from the Netherlands, such as the Frisian and
> Flemish Mennonites who started arriving in Poland in the 1500s and settled
> in villages where -- unlike their enserfed Polish neighbors -- they enjoyed
> several personal and collective freedoms.  They lent their name to this type
> of village organization.  The governing law was called the "Holender" law,
> and such villages "Holendry" or "Olendry."
>
> The second meaning is people who lived in villages organized under the
> Holender law, regardless of their ethnicity.  The author explicity
> acknowledges in the introduction to the Polish version that ethnic Germans
> and Poles, as well as Dutch, lived in "olendry."  It is in this sense that
> they are referred to as "Olendrzy."
>
> The first meaning of Olender -- people from the Netherlands -- can be
> appropriately translated into English as "Dutch."  The second meaning --
> people living in villages organized under the Olender law -- should not be.
>  That is the error the translator made.
>
> But I do have some sympathy for the translator, as there doesn't seem to be
> any other term in English that succintly captures that second meaning.  The
> German term "Niederunger" is not a substitute, as it differentiates one set
> of German colonists from colonists with origins in Wuerttemberg or Saxony.
>  Moreover, Niederungers, Saxons and Wuerttembergers could all live in
> "Olendry" villages, and -- while Germans were surely the overwhelming
> majority of such colonists -- there were nevertheless some ethnic Poles and
> Netherlanders among them.
>
> I don't think this translation difficulty signals a problem with the
> scholarship itself.  I spot checked the Polish language page for a few of
> the villages I'm most familiar with (Zakrzewo, Rakowo, Sady, Bialobrzeg,
> Wykowo, Leszyno and Swiniary) and in each case it seemed clear in context
> that the second meaning of Holender was intended.  Indeed, the Swiniary page
> states, "The first Holender homesteads in this village, named for the first
> time in the 14th Century, were founded in 1788.  'Clearing away' overgrowth
> was agreed to by Marcin Datzlaw 'a German citizen of the village of Sady."
> That makes it pretty clear the author was aware he was not just dealing with
> people from the Netherlands, a point he makes himself in the introduction.
>
> I'm curious how other list members handle this translation issue when
> writing on this topic in English.  I think my preferred approached would be
> to explain the (second) meaning of Olender and Olendry, and then use that
> term without translating it.
>
> Worth
>
>
> --- On Sun, 2/15/09, Jerry Frank <FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> > From: Jerry Frank <FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca>
> > Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Free English language book on German
> villages in Mazovia
> > To: worth_a at yahoo.com
> > Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
> > Date: Sunday, February 15, 2009, 7:20 PM
>  > I have been debating myself for some time now whether to
> > include that link from our website or not. The entire book
> > is a very long download. If you want to browse through the
> > village descriptions yourself, start at:
> >
> > http://holland.org.pl/art.php?kat=obiekt&id=1&lang=en
> >
> > Opposite the search box on the right side you will see an
> > arrow. Click that to work your way through the villages. You
> > can also use the search box to find a specific village but
> > it will require an exact spelling match and you will
> > struggle with switching between Polish and English language
> > pages.
> >
> > The reason I have been reluctant to include the link even
> > though some of the villages details are excellent, is that
> > the entire website and book are based on the blatantly false
> > premise that these are Dutch (Holland) villages. Almost
> > every village is described as being founded by Dutch
> > Colonists though a handful do make reference to Evangelical
> > (Lutheran) Germans. In fact, the opposite is true. 99% of
> > the villages shown were founded or settled by Germans. Only
> > a small handful had Dutch (Mennonite) settlers. Lest someone
> > assume that this is a Dutch vs. Deutsch confusion, the
> > Polish language uses two distinctly different words to
> > describe them so confusion is unlikely - Holenderski vs.
> > Niemieckie. Further more, the website name clearly
> > references Holland.
> >
> > In the introduction, this statement is made:
> > "The Dutch were the first colonists. In the 18th
> > century, they were followed by German farmers from Lower
> > Germany as well as Polish peasants. The Dutch settlers were
> > nicknamed Ol?der, which was the Polonized version of the
> > noun "Dutchman" ("Holender" in Polish).
> > Ol?der signified not only the nationality of the settlers,
> > but also the system of farming that originated in Holland.
> > The system, which granted considerable freedom to the
> > colonists, was based on the perpetual lease of land, with
> > only cash rent payable to the landowner."
> >
> > The author has the right idea but seems to forget that the
> > term which describes the land ownership / village government
> > style instituted by the Dutch Mennonites in Prussian regions
> > can also apply to any other ethnic group, German, Polish or
> > other, that operate under similar rules. The fact that there
> > were numerous Hollendry or Hollendry style villages along
> > Wisla River does not mean that all those villages originated
> > as the result of Dutch settlement.
> >
> > I have tried to correspond with the authors and supporters
> > of this site. All addresses, including that of the
> > webmaster, result in bounces. It's a shame that such
> > quality presentation is tainted by such very poor and far
> > reaching research.
> >
> > Bottom line - some good content in this material regarding
> > the villages but treat most references to Dutch as being
> > German.
> >
> > Jerry Frank
> > Calgary, AB
> >
> >
> >
> > Worth Anderson wrote:
> > > In 2004, Polish historian Jerzy Szalygin published in
> > Polish, "Catalogue of monuments of Dutch Colonization
> > in Mazovia."  This book lists alphabetically each
> > German village, usually with a map excerpt to show the
> > location, and information (often with pictures) on any
> > surviving pre-War German buildings.  The excerpt for Rakowo
> > appears at the bottom of this e-mail, to give a flavor of
> > the information.
> > >
> > > I thought this was an amazing source when I first
> > learned about it, but it gets better.  Szalygin's book
> > has been translated into English, and is available as a free
> > download at:
> > <http://holland.org.pl/art.php?kat=art&dzial=ogolne&id=ebook&lang=en>.
> >  While you're at the website, poke around; it is full of
> > interesting information.
> > >
> > > Worth
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
>


From FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca  Mon Feb 16 07:03:44 2009
From: FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 08:03:44 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Free English language book on German
 villages in Mazovia
In-Reply-To: <857551.44978.qm@web110413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <857551.44978.qm@web110413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <49998050.1080700@shaw.ca>

I absolutely agree that if we English readers interpret the context 
correctly, this material can be of significant use to us.  
Unfortunately, since none of the contact addresses at the site are 
functioning (neither author, institution, or webmaster), it has not been 
possible to obtain clarification from the author as to his intent.

It is true that the author, in some sections, acknowledges that Germans 
and Poles often lived in the Olendry.  There are clues within the book 
that the author believes not only that every Olendry was originally 
settled by Dutch from Holland but that most of them retained small 
pockets of Dutch Mennonite residents up until 1945 (reference chapter on 
18th and 20th Century Settlements).  Here are a couple of other example 
quotes:

"Credit for both bringing this land under cultivation and for the 
introduction of a very characteristic type of homesteads and cottages 
needs to be given to the settlers who came to Poland from Friesland and 
Flanders in the early 16th century."

In fact, for most of the villages along the Wisla River, the homesteads 
and cottages would represent characteristics of German settlement, not 
that of Friesland and Flanders.  After writing extensively about the 
Dutch Mennonites in other parts of Poland, the author states:

"The Dutch also colonized areas by the Bug (villages Neudorf and Neubrau)."

In context, the word "Dutch" here clearly refers to the Mennonites, not 
the Olendry settlement.  Interestingly enough, his footnote reference 
for this statement is to a Polish source, not a Mennonite one as is the 
case with many previous footnotes.  In fact, the first settlers (mid 
1600s) in those two villages were German Lutherans, not Dutch 
Mennonites.  They did of course bring with them the Olendry style of 
village government and became known as the Bug Hollender.  But they were 
not Dutch.  By the way, I'll be doing a presentation on the Bug 
Hollender and their voluntary migration to Siberia at this years convention.

The "Catalogue of Mennonite Houses of Prayer" is a chapter that seems to 
put things in proper perspective by listing those places that were 
indeed Frisian or Flemish (Mennonite in context) settlements.  Only 3 or 
4 of them are to be found along the Wisla River.  The others are all in 
former Prussian territory. 

I applaud the efforts of the author to bring to light the multicultural 
history that applies to many parts of Poland.  I just think that he 
hasn't dug deep enough to get it right.


Jerry Frank
Calgary, AB



Worth Anderson wrote:
> Jerry:  You are quite right that "Dutch" seems to be misused in the English language version.  You are also right that this isn't a "Dutch" vs. "Deutsch" confusion, but I think it is the result of another translation problem: two different but related usages of the word "Holender" or "Olender" in Polish.
>
> The first meaning is people from the Netherlands, such as the Frisian and Flemish Mennonites who started arriving in Poland in the 1500s and settled in villages where -- unlike their enserfed Polish neighbors -- they enjoyed several personal and collective freedoms.  They lent their name to this type of village organization.  The governing law was called the "Holender" law, and such villages "Holendry" or "Olendry."
>
> The second meaning is people who lived in villages organized under the Holender law, regardless of their ethnicity.  The author explicity acknowledges in the introduction to the Polish version that ethnic Germans and Poles, as well as Dutch, lived in "olendry."  It is in this sense that they are referred to as "Olendrzy."
>
> The first meaning of Olender -- people from the Netherlands -- can be appropriately translated into English as "Dutch."  The second meaning -- people living in villages organized under the Olender law -- should not be.  That is the error the translator made.
>
> But I do have some sympathy for the translator, as there doesn't seem to be any other term in English that succintly captures that second meaning.  The German term "Niederunger" is not a substitute, as it differentiates one set of German colonists from colonists with origins in Wuerttemberg or Saxony.  Moreover, Niederungers, Saxons and Wuerttembergers could all live in "Olendry" villages, and -- while Germans were surely the overwhelming majority of such colonists -- there were nevertheless some ethnic Poles and Netherlanders among them.
>
> I don't think this translation difficulty signals a problem with the scholarship itself.  I spot checked the Polish language page for a few of the villages I'm most familiar with (Zakrzewo, Rakowo, Sady, Bialobrzeg, Wykowo, Leszyno and Swiniary) and in each case it seemed clear in context that the second meaning of Holender was intended.  Indeed, the Swiniary page states, "The first Holender homesteads in this village, named for the first time in the 14th Century, were founded in 1788.  'Clearing away' overgrowth was agreed to by Marcin Datzlaw 'a German citizen of the village of Sady." That makes it pretty clear the author was aware he was not just dealing with people from the Netherlands, a point he makes himself in the introduction.
>
> I'm curious how other list members handle this translation issue when writing on this topic in English.  I think my preferred approached would be to explain the (second) meaning of Olender and Olendry, and then use that term without translating it. 
>
> Worth
>
>
> --- On Sun, 2/15/09, Jerry Frank <FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>   
>> From: Jerry Frank <FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca>
>> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Free English language book on German villages in Mazovia
>> To: worth_a at yahoo.com
>> Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
>> Date: Sunday, February 15, 2009, 7:20 PM
>> I have been debating myself for some time now whether to
>> include that link from our website or not. The entire book
>> is a very long download. If you want to browse through the
>> village descriptions yourself, start at:
>>
>> http://holland.org.pl/art.php?kat=obiekt&id=1&lang=en
>>
>> Opposite the search box on the right side you will see an
>> arrow. Click that to work your way through the villages. You
>> can also use the search box to find a specific village but
>> it will require an exact spelling match and you will
>> struggle with switching between Polish and English language
>> pages.
>>
>> The reason I have been reluctant to include the link even
>> though some of the villages details are excellent, is that
>> the entire website and book are based on the blatantly false
>> premise that these are Dutch (Holland) villages. Almost
>> every village is described as being founded by Dutch
>> Colonists though a handful do make reference to Evangelical
>> (Lutheran) Germans. In fact, the opposite is true. 99% of
>> the villages shown were founded or settled by Germans. Only
>> a small handful had Dutch (Mennonite) settlers. Lest someone
>> assume that this is a Dutch vs. Deutsch confusion, the
>> Polish language uses two distinctly different words to
>> describe them so confusion is unlikely - Holenderski vs.
>> Niemieckie. Further more, the website name clearly
>> references Holland.
>>
>> In the introduction, this statement is made:
>> "The Dutch were the first colonists. In the 18th
>> century, they were followed by German farmers from Lower
>> Germany as well as Polish peasants. The Dutch settlers were
>> nicknamed Ol?der, which was the Polonized version of the
>> noun "Dutchman" ("Holender" in Polish).
>> Ol?der signified not only the nationality of the settlers,
>> but also the system of farming that originated in Holland.
>> The system, which granted considerable freedom to the
>> colonists, was based on the perpetual lease of land, with
>> only cash rent payable to the landowner."
>>
>> The author has the right idea but seems to forget that the
>> term which describes the land ownership / village government
>> style instituted by the Dutch Mennonites in Prussian regions
>> can also apply to any other ethnic group, German, Polish or
>> other, that operate under similar rules. The fact that there
>> were numerous Hollendry or Hollendry style villages along
>> Wisla River does not mean that all those villages originated
>> as the result of Dutch settlement.
>>
>> I have tried to correspond with the authors and supporters
>> of this site. All addresses, including that of the
>> webmaster, result in bounces. It's a shame that such
>> quality presentation is tainted by such very poor and far
>> reaching research.
>>
>> Bottom line - some good content in this material regarding
>> the villages but treat most references to Dutch as being
>> German.
>>
>> Jerry Frank
>> Calgary, AB
>>
>>
>>
>> Worth Anderson wrote:
>>     
>>> In 2004, Polish historian Jerzy Szalygin published in
>>>       
>> Polish, "Catalogue of monuments of Dutch Colonization
>> in Mazovia."  This book lists alphabetically each
>> German village, usually with a map excerpt to show the
>> location, and information (often with pictures) on any
>> surviving pre-War German buildings.  The excerpt for Rakowo
>> appears at the bottom of this e-mail, to give a flavor of
>> the information.
>>     
>>> I thought this was an amazing source when I first
>>>       
>> learned about it, but it gets better.  Szalygin's book
>> has been translated into English, and is available as a free
>> download at:
>> <http://holland.org.pl/art.php?kat=art&dzial=ogolne&id=ebook&lang=en>.
>>  While you're at the website, poke around; it is full of
>> interesting information.
>>     
>>> Worth
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>
>
>       
>
>   


From FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca  Mon Feb 16 07:37:33 2009
From: FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 08:37:33 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Free English language book on
 German	villages in Mazovia - Olender and its meaning(s)
In-Reply-To: <129d86830902160705i33341753v82f9a2d94db2e919@mail.gmail.com>
References: <129d86830902160705i33341753v82f9a2d94db2e919@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4999883D.7050901@shaw.ca>

Good additional clarification, Bronwyn.  Lukasz has it right.  The 
Germans settled under the Dutch law resulting in the establishment of an 
Olendry but that doesn't mean any Dutch people were previously living 
there as is implied in the book.

Jerry Frank
Calgary, AB



Bronwyn Klimach wrote:
>  http://www.beactivetour.com/ciekawostki.html
> Under the title 'Interesting Facts' Lukasz writes:
> The Olender (Old-Lutheran) colonization in Pozna? /Posen/ Province
> Olender settlement in the area around Nekla started in the middle of the
> 18th century. German peasants (followers of Old-Lutheran denomination) were
> settled there under Dutch law and founded Nekielskie Ol?dry, presently
> called Nekielka. They arrived in the area from the Brandenbug - Wielkopolska
> border and settlements estabished earlier west from Pozna?. After Prussia
> started to occupy this Polish area in 1793, the settlement was renamed Nekla
> Hauland.
> Lukasz goes on to give succinct reasons for Olender settlement, and features
> of it, etc.
> Hopefully this will extend the understanding of Olender!
> Kind regards,
> Bronwyn.**
>
>   


From m.nawrocki at orange.pl  Mon Feb 16 08:47:32 2009
From: m.nawrocki at orange.pl (Marcin Nawrocki)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:47:32 +0100
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Kujawa - Wolhynia
Message-ID: <AB054C52-5082-4DE2-B658-05C25FCFEC3D@orange.pl>

Hello everybody,

I have one question: did anybody hear about settlement KUJAWA in  
Wolhynia? One of german genealogist from Berlin wrote me that this  
settlement had existed in Wolhynia.

Best regards from winter Warsaw

Marcin




From FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca  Mon Feb 16 09:06:47 2009
From: FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 10:06:47 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Kujawa - Wolhynia
In-Reply-To: <AB054C52-5082-4DE2-B658-05C25FCFEC3D@orange.pl>
References: <AB054C52-5082-4DE2-B658-05C25FCFEC3D@orange.pl>
Message-ID: <49999D27.5060401@shaw.ca>

I have looked through all my resources for Volhynia and cannot find a 
Kujawa.

Kuyavy is an alternate name for the town of Sosnowka but that was in 
Galicia, not Volhynia.

It would be helpful to know the context of this place name.  What is the 
source?  Does it come from a church record or from family lore?  Is it 
possible that the reference is to a time before the colonist arrived in 
Volhynia such as to the Kujawian district of Poland?


Jerry Frank
Calgary, AB



Marcin Nawrocki wrote:
> Hello everybody,
>
> I have one question: did anybody hear about settlement KUJAWA in  
> Wolhynia? One of german genealogist from Berlin wrote me that this  
> settlement had existed in Wolhynia.
>
> Best regards from winter Warsaw
>
> Marcin
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
>
>   


From GHBoehm at ish.de  Mon Feb 16 09:17:01 2009
From: GHBoehm at ish.de (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?G=FCnther_B=F6hm?=)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 18:17:01 +0100
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Free English language book on German
 villages in Mazovia
In-Reply-To: <49998050.1080700@shaw.ca>
References: <857551.44978.qm@web110413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<49998050.1080700@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <49999F8D.4050009@ish.de>

Jerry Frank schrieb:
> It is true that the author, in some sections, acknowledges that Germans 
> and Poles often lived in the Olendry.  There are clues within the book 
> that the author believes not only that every Olendry was originally 
> settled by Dutch from Holland but that most of them retained small 
> pockets of Dutch Mennonite residents up until 1945 (reference chapter on 
> 18th and 20th Century Settlements).
Hello Jerry, Bronwyn and Worth,
I would like to contribute one more detail:
In Germany the word "Holl?nderei" is regionally still in use. It does 
not mean a special type of rural social organization but a traditional 
method to dewater and fertilize wet and swampy areas. An early 
occurrence of this method was in the "Weichselniederung" east of Danzig 
as part of "Preu?en K?niglichen Anteils" under Polish rule. A borough of 
Torgelow in northeastern Germany is called "Holl?nderei" or simply 
"Holl". An originally swampy part of Liebenwalde north of Berlin is 
called "Neuholland". The ameliorated areas were usually used as pasture 
for cattle. This cattle leads to another regional meaning of the word 
"Holl?nderei". In northern Germany a "Holl?nderei" is a dairy farm where 
the milk is processed into butter and cheese ( see 
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holl%C3%A4nderei ). Both methods originated 
from the Netherlands but their designation was definitely German.

Why "Holl?nderei" and "Neuholland" instead of any other name of a North 
German province with flooded and regained land? The "Gro?e Kurf?rst" 
Friedrich Wilhelm I. of Brandenburg was educated in the Netherlands 
(like Tzar Peter the Great he learned the shipbuilder's trade) and 
married to Luise Henriette von NASSAU-ORANIEN, the eldest daughter of 
Prince Frederik Hendrik van ORANJE, the stadtholder of Holland, Zeeland, 
Utrecht, Guelders, and Overijssel. The "Gro?e Kurf?rst" was the first to 
bring Dutch colonists to his provinces devastated by the Thirty Years 
War and his grandson, the "Soldatenk?nig" Friedrich Wilhelm I. the first 
to emeliorate his halfway sandy and halfway swampy home province of 
Brandenburg (especially the swampy "Rhin-Luch") with Dutch plans and 
under Dutch foremen.

G?nther


From otto at schienke.com  Mon Feb 16 10:17:25 2009
From: otto at schienke.com (Otto)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 13:17:25 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Free English language book
In-Reply-To: <129d86830902160705i33341753v82f9a2d94db2e919@mail.gmail.com>
References: <129d86830902160705i33341753v82f9a2d94db2e919@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <801A89B8-A104-4E24-A638-CC6A8AD3BE8F@schienke.com>

Good whatever part of the day you are experiencing in this global  
environ,
I've been following the Listserv thread this morning as I work on  
other research. I must admit my attention has been redirected to the  
information exchange taking place, interrupting my focus on what I was  
working on. This is more interesting. I found the information  
contributed by G?nther insightful. I need to do research on it,  
knowing a brotherhood pact (open doors) existed between Prussia and  
Holland.

A comment that remains unclear and indistinct in my mind is the  
reference Lukasz makes to "Old Lutheran" and the middle 1700's. It  
appears that the name existed before the event in history giving birth  
to it.

Frederick William III made an attempt to unify the Augsburg and  
Reformed Church into a unified one in 1799. It took until 1822 to firm  
up the decree and enforce it. It had an opposite effect among the  
believers. Some resisted the Prussian Union and became known as the  
"Old Lutherans" in the 1830's and 1840's. The "Old Lutherans" held  
high the "Unaltered Augsburg Confession" of 1530 in rebellion to the  
Prussian Union. Many of the group emigrated to distant shores.


On Feb 16, 2009, at 10:05 AM, Bronwyn Klimach wrote:

> http://www.beactivetour.com/ciekawostki.html
> Under the title 'Interesting Facts' Lukasz writes:
> The Olender (Old-Lutheran) colonization in Pozna? /Posen/ Province
> Olender settlement in the area around Nekla started in the middle of  
> the
> 18th century. German peasants (followers of Old-Lutheran  
> denomination) were
> settled there under Dutch law and founded Nekielskie Ol?dry,  
> presently
> called Nekielka. They arrived in the area from the Brandenbug -  
> Wielkopolska
> border and settlements estabished earlier west from Pozna?. After  
> Prussia
> started to occupy this Polish area in 1793, the settlement was  
> renamed Nekla
> Hauland.
> Lukasz goes on to give succinct reasons for Olender settlement, and  
> features
> of it, etc.
> Hopefully this will extend the understanding of Olender!
> Kind regards,
> Bronwyn.**
>
> On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 6:37 AM, Worth Anderson <worth_a at yahoo.com>  
> wrote:
>
>> Jerry:  You are quite right that "Dutch" seems to be misused in the  
>> English
>> language version.  You are also right that this isn't a "Dutch" vs.
>> "Deutsch" confusion, but I think it is the result of another  
>> translation
>> problem: two different but related usages of the word "Holender" or
>> "Olender" in Polish.
>>
>> The first meaning is people from the Netherlands, such as the  
>> Frisian and
>> Flemish Mennonites who started arriving in Poland in the 1500s and  
>> settled
>> in villages where -- unlike their enserfed Polish neighbors -- they  
>> enjoyed
>> several personal and collective freedoms.  They lent their name to  
>> this type
>> of village organization.  The governing law was called the  
>> "Holender" law,
>> and such villages "Holendry" or "Olendry."
>>
>> The second meaning is people who lived in villages organized under  
>> the
>> Holender law, regardless of their ethnicity.  The author explicity
>> acknowledges in the introduction to the Polish version that ethnic  
>> Germans
>> and Poles, as well as Dutch, lived in "olendry."  It is in this  
>> sense that
>> they are referred to as "Olendrzy."
>>
>> The first meaning of Olender -- people from the Netherlands -- can be
>> appropriately translated into English as "Dutch."  The second  
>> meaning --
>> people living in villages organized under the Olender law -- should  
>> not be.
>> That is the error the translator made.
>>
>> But I do have some sympathy for the translator, as there doesn't  
>> seem to be
>> any other term in English that succintly captures that second  
>> meaning.  The
>> German term "Niederunger" is not a substitute, as it differentiates  
>> one set
>> of German colonists from colonists with origins in Wuerttemberg or  
>> Saxony.
>> Moreover, Niederungers, Saxons and Wuerttembergers could all live in
>> "Olendry" villages, and -- while Germans were surely the overwhelming
>> majority of such colonists -- there were nevertheless some ethnic  
>> Poles and
>> Netherlanders among them.
>>
>> I don't think this translation difficulty signals a problem with the
>> scholarship itself.  I spot checked the Polish language page for a  
>> few of
>> the villages I'm most familiar with (Zakrzewo, Rakowo, Sady,  
>> Bialobrzeg,
>> Wykowo, Leszyno and Swiniary) and in each case it seemed clear in  
>> context
>> that the second meaning of Holender was intended.  Indeed, the  
>> Swiniary page
>> states, "The first Holender homesteads in this village, named for  
>> the first
>> time in the 14th Century, were founded in 1788.  'Clearing away'  
>> overgrowth
>> was agreed to by Marcin Datzlaw 'a German citizen of the village of  
>> Sady."
>> That makes it pretty clear the author was aware he was not just  
>> dealing with
>> people from the Netherlands, a point he makes himself in the  
>> introduction.
>>
>> I'm curious how other list members handle this translation issue when
>> writing on this topic in English.  I think my preferred approached  
>> would be
>> to explain the (second) meaning of Olender and Olendry, and then  
>> use that
>> term without translating it.
>>
>> Worth
>>
>>
>> --- On Sun, 2/15/09, Jerry Frank <FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Jerry Frank <FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca>
>>> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Free English language book on  
>>> German
>> villages in Mazovia
>>> To: worth_a at yahoo.com
>>> Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
>>> Date: Sunday, February 15, 2009, 7:20 PM
>>> I have been debating myself for some time now whether to
>>> include that link from our website or not. The entire book
>>> is a very long download. If you want to browse through the
>>> village descriptions yourself, start at:
>>>
>>> http://holland.org.pl/art.php?kat=obiekt&id=1&lang=en
>>>
>>> Opposite the search box on the right side you will see an
>>> arrow. Click that to work your way through the villages. You
>>> can also use the search box to find a specific village but
>>> it will require an exact spelling match and you will
>>> struggle with switching between Polish and English language
>>> pages.
>>>
>>> The reason I have been reluctant to include the link even
>>> though some of the villages details are excellent, is that
>>> the entire website and book are based on the blatantly false
>>> premise that these are Dutch (Holland) villages. Almost
>>> every village is described as being founded by Dutch
>>> Colonists though a handful do make reference to Evangelical
>>> (Lutheran) Germans. In fact, the opposite is true. 99% of
>>> the villages shown were founded or settled by Germans. Only
>>> a small handful had Dutch (Mennonite) settlers. Lest someone
>>> assume that this is a Dutch vs. Deutsch confusion, the
>>> Polish language uses two distinctly different words to
>>> describe them so confusion is unlikely - Holenderski vs.
>>> Niemieckie. Further more, the website name clearly
>>> references Holland.
>>>
>>> In the introduction, this statement is made:
>>> "The Dutch were the first colonists. In the 18th
>>> century, they were followed by German farmers from Lower
>>> Germany as well as Polish peasants. The Dutch settlers were
>>> nicknamed Ol?der, which was the Polonized version of the
>>> noun "Dutchman" ("Holender" in Polish).
>>> Ol?der signified not only the nationality of the settlers,
>>> but also the system of farming that originated in Holland.
>>> The system, which granted considerable freedom to the
>>> colonists, was based on the perpetual lease of land, with
>>> only cash rent payable to the landowner."
>>>
>>> The author has the right idea but seems to forget that the
>>> term which describes the land ownership / village government
>>> style instituted by the Dutch Mennonites in Prussian regions
>>> can also apply to any other ethnic group, German, Polish or
>>> other, that operate under similar rules. The fact that there
>>> were numerous Hollendry or Hollendry style villages along
>>> Wisla River does not mean that all those villages originated
>>> as the result of Dutch settlement.
>>>
>>> I have tried to correspond with the authors and supporters
>>> of this site. All addresses, including that of the
>>> webmaster, result in bounces. It's a shame that such
>>> quality presentation is tainted by such very poor and far
>>> reaching research.
>>>
>>> Bottom line - some good content in this material regarding
>>> the villages but treat most references to Dutch as being
>>> German.
>>>
>>> Jerry Frank
>>> Calgary, AB
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Worth Anderson wrote:
>>>> In 2004, Polish historian Jerzy Szalygin published in
>>> Polish, "Catalogue of monuments of Dutch Colonization
>>> in Mazovia."  This book lists alphabetically each
>>> German village, usually with a map excerpt to show the
>>> location, and information (often with pictures) on any
>>> surviving pre-War German buildings.  The excerpt for Rakowo
>>> appears at the bottom of this e-mail, to give a flavor of
>>> the information.
>>>>
>>>> I thought this was an amazing source when I first
>>> learned about it, but it gets better.  Szalygin's book
>>> has been translated into English, and is available as a free
>>> download at:
>>> <http://holland.org.pl/art.php? 
>>> kat=art&dzial=ogolne&id=ebook&lang=en>.
>>> While you're at the website, poke around; it is full of
>>> interesting information.
>>>>
>>>> Worth
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
>> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
>> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv







. . .   Otto
          " The Zen moment..." wk. of January 04, 2009-
               ________________________________
                 "The future. . . . always catches up."




From joepessarra at suddenlink.net  Mon Feb 16 14:02:04 2009
From: joepessarra at suddenlink.net (joepessarra)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 16:02:04 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Kujawa - Wolhynia
In-Reply-To: <49999D27.5060401@shaw.ca>
References: <AB054C52-5082-4DE2-B658-05C25FCFEC3D@orange.pl>
	<49999D27.5060401@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <002601c99082$33e00f40$9ba02dc0$@net>

There is a town of Kujawa, but it was probably in Poland at the time.

Kujawa populated place 53?12' N 19?12' E  E M U G Poland  99.8 miles NW of
Warszawa 52?15' N 21?0' E

Here is the town of Kowel, which was in Volhynia at the time, I believe.

Kowel, Kovel? populated place 51?13' N 24?43' E  E M U G Ukraine  258.6
miles WNW of Kyyiv 50?26' N 30?31' E

There is a Kujawy that is only 132.2 miles WNW of Kowel.  From the maps I
can look at on the Internet, I can't tell if this would have been in Poland
or Volhynia at the time.  I am sure that Jerry can tell us.

Kujawy populated place 51?55' N 21?51' E  E M U G Poland  132.2 miles WNW of
51?13' N 24?43' E

Hope I have not muddied the waters.

Joe in Texas



-----Original Message-----
From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
[mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of Jerry
Frank
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 11:07 AM
To: Marcin Nawrocki
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Kujawa - Wolhynia

I have looked through all my resources for Volhynia and cannot find a 
Kujawa.

Kuyavy is an alternate name for the town of Sosnowka but that was in 
Galicia, not Volhynia.

It would be helpful to know the context of this place name.  What is the 
source?  Does it come from a church record or from family lore?  Is it 
possible that the reference is to a time before the colonist arrived in 
Volhynia such as to the Kujawian district of Poland?


Jerry Frank
Calgary, AB



Marcin Nawrocki wrote:
> Hello everybody,
>
> I have one question: did anybody hear about settlement KUJAWA in  
> Wolhynia? One of german genealogist from Berlin wrote me that this  
> settlement had existed in Wolhynia.
>
> Best regards from winter Warsaw
>
> Marcin
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
>
>   

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv




From mw2657 at cs.com  Mon Feb 16 14:41:45 2009
From: mw2657 at cs.com (mw2657@cs.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:41:45 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Translation please?
In-Reply-To: <03bf7dd2236a477e863c520c233971e3@myfamily.com>
References: <03bf7dd2236a477e863c520c233971e3@myfamily.com>
Message-ID: <8CB5E9EE19E5BAA-488-360@WEBMAIL-MY03.sysops.aol.com>

Hi all, 

I have been monitoring this list for a few years, as Ihave @ 30 families I am searching in the Posen area. I am constantly amazed at the helpful, knowledgeable folks on this list and appreciate all of your comments each day.

I was wondering if someone could translate the following email?which came to me as a reply to an Ancestry.com posting. Thanks for any help you can provide.

Thanks!
Maureen Webb



Jestem wnukiem Jana Moszczy?skiego(urodzonego w 1906 r.), syna Franciszka (syna Adama)i Feliksy z ?abinskich, kt?rzy pochodzili z okolic Janowca Ko?cielnego (dzisiejszy powiat Nidzicki, wojew?dztwo Warmi?ski-Mazurskie), a wi?c z teren?w historycznego Mazowsza, a konkretnie z Pobo?a.
Czekam na odpowied?.

Serdecznie pozdrawiam!
Marek Zambrzycki.

Ps. zambrzycki-marek at wp.pl

-------



________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com


From nancygertner at mac.com  Mon Feb 16 17:37:17 2009
From: nancygertner at mac.com (Nancy Gertner)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 19:37:17 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Free English language book on German
	villages; Olendry, Hollanderei
In-Reply-To: <49999F8D.4050009@ish.de>
References: <857551.44978.qm@web110413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<49998050.1080700@shaw.ca> <49999F8D.4050009@ish.de>
Message-ID: <2E8E7BF7-97EE-4B18-B887-20720280D749@mac.com>

Thanks for this interesting exchange.

I visited Poland in 2005, and was very pleased to find a windmill in  
the area southeast of Danzig where my Gaertner ancestors lived 200  
years ago.  We were told the windmills were used as part of the  
system for draining the land.  The system now is pumping stations  
with pumps that are powered by sources like electricity.

My Gaertner ancestors, German Lutherans, left West Prussia for South  
Russia c 1836.

One of the brides was descended from a Deutschmann father that had  
married a Neufeld that was Mennonite, so I'm interested in both the  
German Lutherans and the Dutch Mennonites that settled in West  
Prussia and also in Russia.

My father's maternal ancestors were from Posen Province before  
emigrating to America in 1866.  Ancestors that I've researched in  
Posen (primarily Schokken Evangelical Parish records) include Grams,  
Jahnke, Jesse, Mallas, Sonnenburg, Ziemer.  These names are commonly  
found in Volhynia also.

Nancy

On Feb 16, 2009, at 11:17 AM, G?nther B?hm wrote:

> Jerry Frank schrieb:
>> There are clues within the book
>> that the author believes not only that every Olendry was originally
>> settled by Dutch from Holland but that most of them retained small
>> pockets of Dutch Mennonite residents up until 1945 (reference  
>> chapter on
>> 18th and 20th Century Settlements).
> Hello Jerry, Bronwyn and Worth,
> I would like to contribute one more detail:
> In Germany the word "Holl?nderei" is regionally still in use. It does
> not mean a special type of rural social organization but a traditional
> method to dewater and fertilize wet and swampy areas. An early
> occurrence of this method was in the "Weichselniederung" east of  
> Danzig
> as part of "Preu?en K?niglichen Anteils" under Polish rule. The  
> "Gro?e Kurf?rst"
> Friedrich Wilhelm I. of Brandenburg was educated in the Netherlands
> (like Tzar Peter the Great he learned the shipbuilder's trade) and
> married to Luise Henriette von NASSAU-ORANIEN, the eldest daughter of
> Prince Frederik Hendrik van ORANJE, the stadtholder of Holland,  
> Zeeland,
> Utrecht, Guelders, and Overijssel. The "Gro?e Kurf?rst" was the  
> first to
> bring Dutch colonists to his provinces devastated by the Thirty Years
> War and his grandson, the "Soldatenk?nig" Friedrich Wilhelm I. the  
> first
> to emeliorate his halfway sandy and halfway swampy home province of
> Brandenburg (especially the swampy "Rhin-Luch") with Dutch plans and
> under Dutch foremen.
>
> G?nther
>




From Hannes.Werner at online.de  Tue Feb 17 11:48:28 2009
From: Hannes.Werner at online.de (Hannes Werner)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 20:48:28 +0100
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Translation please?
References: <03bf7dd2236a477e863c520c233971e3@myfamily.com>
	<8CB5E9EE19E5BAA-488-360@WEBMAIL-MY03.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <066801c99138$b547afa0$f800a8c0@end2000>

Hello Maureen,

that means:

I am a grandson of Jan Moszczy?ski (born 1906), son of Franciszek (son of
Adam) and Feliksy nee ?abinskich, who came from surroundings of Janowca
Ko?cielnego (today's district Nidzicki, province Warmi?ski-Mazurskie), that
is in area of historical Masovia, and more specifically around Pobo?a.
I am waiting for your response.

Love regards!
Marek Zambrzycki

my best wishes
Hannes Werner
Germany


----- Original Message -----
From: <mw2657 at cs.com>
To: <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 11:41 PM
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Translation please?


> Hi all,
>
> I have been monitoring this list for a few years, as Ihave @ 30 families I
am searching in the Posen area. I am constantly amazed at the helpful,
knowledgeable folks on this list and appreciate all of your comments each
day.
>
> I was wondering if someone could translate the following email which came
to me as a reply to an Ancestry.com posting. Thanks for any help you can
provide.
>
> Thanks!
> Maureen Webb
>
>
>
> Jestem wnukiem Jana Moszczy?skiego(urodzonego w 1906 r.), syna Franciszka
(syna Adama)i Feliksy z ?abinskich, kt?rzy pochodzili z okolic Janowca
Ko?cielnego (dzisiejszy powiat Nidzicki, wojew?dztwo Warmi?ski-Mazurskie), a
wi?c z teren?w historycznego Mazowsza, a konkretnie z Pobo?a.
> Czekam na odpowied?.
>
> Serdecznie pozdrawiam!
> Marek Zambrzycki.
>
> Ps. zambrzycki-marek at wp.pl
>
> -------
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv



From Hannes.Werner at online.de  Tue Feb 17 12:08:42 2009
From: Hannes.Werner at online.de (Hannes Werner)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 21:08:42 +0100
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Translation please?
References: <03bf7dd2236a477e863c520c233971e3@myfamily.com>
	<8CB5E9EE19E5BAA-488-360@WEBMAIL-MY03.sysops.aol.com>
	<005101c99093$1610c5c0$f800a8c0@end2000>
	<8CB5EAB979225C1-488-7CE@WEBMAIL-MY03.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <068201c9913b$882c1c60$f800a8c0@end2000>

Hi Maureen,

the names seem to be and to sound different. Sorry, but my knowledge in polish ist not good enough. 
I'm also searching in the district of Inowroclaw, but only my prussian ancestors.

You should use a polish map-server to locate your known places and compare with places of Marek's ancestors.
Well, i checked it just now: Turzany = about 6 km east of Inowroclaw
                                        Nidzica powiat Nidzicki = ~160 km north-east of Inowroclaw

That seems to be to far away.  

Perhaps, some other members of this list could help better than me?

Hannes W. 
Germany
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: mw2657 at cs.com 
  To: Hannes.Werner at online.de 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 1:12 AM
  Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Translation please?


  Hello Hannes,

  Thank you for that information. As I know absolutely nothing of the Polish language other than some terms related to food (lol), can you tell me if the name Moszczynski would be pronounced like "Mosayenski"? I had no documentation of this line, just oral history from my Great uncle that hisgrandmothers name was Eva "Mosayenska". He was in his 80's when he passed away @ 8 years ago, and I have been unable to trace this line without any documentation of the correct spelling of her name (Mosayenski/a is how I wrote it down when he told me - he was not sure how it would be spelled either).

  Also, my Grandmother was Regina Kruszynski Steupak (Szczupak), sister of the great uncle who provided me this information, and the Kruszynski line has been elusive also. I have never found out where in Poland either of these great great grandparents were from. I know the Szczupak line was from Parchanie/Turzany/Inowroclaw area not far from Posen. So I am assuming (may be a bad assumption, but all I have to go on) the Kruszynski and Mosayenski lines are from that area as oral family history also has that these families all knew each other in Poland. If my assumption is correct, and they are from the area around Posen/Inowroclaw, can you tell me if that is near to Janowca Ko?cielnego where Marek's family is from?

  As always, I appreciate any/all help I can get. Thanks for your time!

  Regards, Maureen


  -----Original Message-----
  From: Hannes Werner < Hannes.Werner at online.de>
  To: mw2657 at cs.com
  Sent: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 6:02 pm
  Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Translation please?


  Hello Maureen, 

  that means: 

  I am a grandson of Jan Moszczy?ski (born 1906), son of Franciszek (son of Adam) and Feliksy nee ?abinskich, who came from surroundings of Janowca Ko?cielnego (today's district Nidzicki, province Warmi?ski-Mazurskie), that is in area of historical Masovia, and more specifically around Pobo?a. 
  I am waiting for your response. 

  Love regards! 
  Marek Zambrzycki 

  my best wishes
  Hannes Werner
  Germany

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: <mw2657 at cs.com>
  To: <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
  Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 11:41 PM
  Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Translation please?


  > Hi all, 
  > 
  > I have been monitoring this list for a few years, as Ihave @ 30 families I am searching in the Posen area. I am constantly amazed at the helpful, knowledgeable folks on this list and appreciate all of your comments each day.
  > 
  > I was wondering if someone could translate the following email which came to me as a reply to an Ancestry.com posting. Thanks for any help you can provide.
  > 
  > Thanks!
  > Maureen Webb
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > Jestem wnukiem Jana Moszczy?skiego(urodzonego w 1906 r.), syna Franciszka (syna Adama)i Feliksy z ?abinskich, kt?rzy pochodzili z okolic Janowca Ko?cielnego (dzisiejszy powiat Nidzicki, wojew?dztwo Warmi?ski-Mazurskie), a wi?c z teren?w historycznego Mazowsza, a konkretnie z Pobo?a.
  > Czekam na odpowied?.
  > 
  > Serdecznie pozdrawiam!
  > Marek Zambrzycki.
  > 
  > Ps. zambrzycki-marek at wp.pl
  > 
  > -------
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > ________________________________________________________________________
  > Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
  > 
  > _______________________________________________
  > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
  > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
  > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com


From joepessarra at suddenlink.net  Tue Feb 17 12:19:42 2009
From: joepessarra at suddenlink.net (joepessarra)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 14:19:42 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Translation please?
In-Reply-To: <068201c9913b$882c1c60$f800a8c0@end2000>
References: <03bf7dd2236a477e863c520c233971e3@myfamily.com>	<8CB5E9EE19E5BAA-488-360@WEBMAIL-MY03.sysops.aol.com>	<005101c99093$1610c5c0$f800a8c0@end2000>	<8CB5EAB979225C1-488-7CE@WEBMAIL-MY03.sysops.aol.com>
	<068201c9913b$882c1c60$f800a8c0@end2000>
Message-ID: <000801c9913d$11a5a230$34f0e690$@net>

Polish phone directory at http://www.ksiazka-telefoniczna.com/  has 7 Kruszynski listings in Inowroclaw.  Could not find Kruszynski in the other towns you mentioned, and no Mosayenska(i) in any of the towns.

If you want to  do some more searching in the phone directory, you put the town name in the Miasto block, and surname in the Nazwisko block.

You might send some letters to your distant cousins, and make some headway.

Good luck.

Joe in Texas



-----Original Message-----
From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of Hannes Werner
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:09 PM
To: mw2657 at cs.com
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Translation please?

Hi Maureen,

the names seem to be and to sound different. Sorry, but my knowledge in polish ist not good enough. 
I'm also searching in the district of Inowroclaw, but only my prussian ancestors.

You should use a polish map-server to locate your known places and compare with places of Marek's ancestors.
Well, i checked it just now: Turzany = about 6 km east of Inowroclaw
                                        Nidzica powiat Nidzicki = ~160 km north-east of Inowroclaw

That seems to be to far away.  

Perhaps, some other members of this list could help better than me?

Hannes W. 
Germany
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: mw2657 at cs.com 
  To: Hannes.Werner at online.de 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 1:12 AM
  Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Translation please?


  Hello Hannes,

  Thank you for that information. As I know absolutely nothing of the Polish language other than some terms related to food (lol), can you tell me if the name Moszczynski would be pronounced like "Mosayenski"? I had no documentation of this line, just oral history from my Great uncle that hisgrandmothers name was Eva "Mosayenska". He was in his 80's when he passed away @ 8 years ago, and I have been unable to trace this line without any documentation of the correct spelling of her name (Mosayenski/a is how I wrote it down when he told me - he was not sure how it would be spelled either).

  Also, my Grandmother was Regina Kruszynski Steupak (Szczupak), sister of the great uncle who provided me this information, and the Kruszynski line has been elusive also. I have never found out where in Poland either of these great great grandparents were from. I know the Szczupak line was from Parchanie/Turzany/Inowroclaw area not far from Posen. So I am assuming (may be a bad assumption, but all I have to go on) the Kruszynski and Mosayenski lines are from that area as oral family history also has that these families all knew each other in Poland. If my assumption is correct, and they are from the area around Posen/Inowroclaw, can you tell me if that is near to Janowca Ko?cielnego where Marek's family is from?

  As always, I appreciate any/all help I can get. Thanks for your time!

  Regards, Maureen


  -----Original Message-----
  From: Hannes Werner < Hannes.Werner at online.de>
  To: mw2657 at cs.com
  Sent: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 6:02 pm
  Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Translation please?


  Hello Maureen, 

  that means: 

  I am a grandson of Jan Moszczy?ski (born 1906), son of Franciszek (son of Adam) and Feliksy nee ?abinskich, who came from surroundings of Janowca Ko?cielnego (today's district Nidzicki, province Warmi?ski-Mazurskie), that is in area of historical Masovia, and more specifically around Pobo?a. 
  I am waiting for your response. 

  Love regards! 
  Marek Zambrzycki 

  my best wishes
  Hannes Werner
  Germany

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: <mw2657 at cs.com>
  To: <ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org>
  Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 11:41 PM
  Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Translation please?


  > Hi all, 
  > 
  > I have been monitoring this list for a few years, as Ihave @ 30 families I am searching in the Posen area. I am constantly amazed at the helpful, knowledgeable folks on this list and appreciate all of your comments each day.
  > 
  > I was wondering if someone could translate the following email which came to me as a reply to an Ancestry.com posting. Thanks for any help you can provide.
  > 
  > Thanks!
  > Maureen Webb
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > Jestem wnukiem Jana Moszczy?skiego(urodzonego w 1906 r.), syna Franciszka (syna Adama)i Feliksy z ?abinskich, kt?rzy pochodzili z okolic Janowca Ko?cielnego (dzisiejszy powiat Nidzicki, wojew?dztwo Warmi?ski-Mazurskie), a wi?c z teren?w historycznego Mazowsza, a konkretnie z Pobo?a.
  > Czekam na odpowied?.
  > 
  > Serdecznie pozdrawiam!
  > Marek Zambrzycki.
  > 
  > Ps. zambrzycki-marek at wp.pl
  > 
  > -------
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > ________________________________________________________________________
  > Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
  > 
  > _______________________________________________
  > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
  > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
  > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com

_______________________________________________
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Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv




From m.nawrocki at orange.pl  Tue Feb 17 13:04:29 2009
From: m.nawrocki at orange.pl (Marcin Nawrocki)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 22:04:29 +0100
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Translation please?
Message-ID: <7E9F1FF0-75BB-4F58-BF1E-0E129ACE97D8@orange.pl>

Hello Maureen,

My english is not fluent but.. :)

" I am a grand son of JAN MOSZCZYNSKI ( born in 1906), who was a son  
of FRANCISZEK ( son of ADAM) and FELIKSA ZABINSKA. They lived close to  
JANOWIEC KOSCIELNY ( now district NIDZICA, province WARMINSKO- 
MAZURSKIE) so the area of historic MAZOWSZE, exactly POBOZE.
Best greetings
Marek Zambrzycki"


Best
Marcin
Warsaw

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:41:45 -0500
From: mw2657 at cs.com
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Translation please?
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Message-ID: <8CB5E9EE19E5BAA-488-360 at WEBMAIL-MY03.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi all,

I have been monitoring this list for a few years, as Ihave @ 30  
families I am searching in the Posen area. I am constantly amazed at  
the helpful, knowledgeable folks on this list and appreciate all of  
your comments each day.

I was wondering if someone could translate the following email?which  
came to me as a reply to an Ancestry.com posting. Thanks for any help  
you can provide.

Thanks!
Maureen Webb



Jestem wnukiem Jana Moszczy?skiego(urodzonego w 1906 r.), syna  
Franciszka (syna Adama)i Feliksy z ?abinskich, kt?rzy pochodzili z  
okolic Janowca Ko?cielnego (dzisiejszy powiat Nidzicki, wojew?dztwo  
Warmi?ski-Mazurskie), a wi?c z teren?w historycznego Mazowsza, a  
konkretnie z Pobo?a.
Czekam na odpowied?.

Serdecznie pozdrawiam!
Marek Zambrzycki.

Ps. zambrzycki-marek at wp.pl


From cgschott at comcast.net  Mon Feb 23 13:29:13 2009
From: cgschott at comcast.net (Carolyn Schott)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:29:13 -0800
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Article on life in Zhitomir
Message-ID: <5A46A43C0E1540F2BF4801CDB46946F8@Carolyn>

I just posted an article on the GRHS website that I thought might be of
interest to this group. Description: This document is a DAI assistant's
report about the ethnic Germans in the area around Shitomir, Volhynia, what
life was like on the collective farms, in school, the years of famine and
banishment, and the arrival of the German troops in World War II.
 
Go to: http://grhs.org/rig/bess/Korners/allen_konrad_korner.htm#volhynia
 
Carolyn Schott
cgschott at comcast.net
I am changing my address to  <mailto:cgschott at comcast.net>
cgschott at comcast.net. Please update your address book.
 


From Doncarolea at aol.com  Thu Feb 26 03:00:43 2009
From: Doncarolea at aol.com (Doncarolea@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 06:00:43 EST
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Stebner/Schmuland families
Message-ID: <c1f.56d3c83e.36d7d05b@aol.com>

My grandfather, Heinrich Stebner, married my grandmother, Julianna  
Schmuland, on Jan 25, 1882 in Heimtal, Volhynia.  I believe that he was  born July 25, 
1860 and that she was born in 1865. Her parents were  Gottfried Schmuland and 
Justine Pischl.  They emigrated to America in  1913.
I would like to know the towns in which they were born, the names of  
Heinrich Stebner's parents and where both of the German Lutheran families  originally 
came from.  I would appreciate any assistance.
 
 
Don Anderson


From gary at warnerengineering.com  Thu Feb 26 12:07:57 2009
From: gary at warnerengineering.com (Gary Warner)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:07:57 -0800
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Stebner/Schmuland families
In-Reply-To: <c1f.56d3c83e.36d7d05b@aol.com>
References: <c1f.56d3c83e.36d7d05b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <49A6F69D.1010003@warnerengineering.com>

Don,

You appear to have found the marriage of your grand parents in the St. 
Petersburg marriage records (Heimtal parish), as your data matches the 
data found there- although your grandmother's maiden name is shown as 
Schnneland in the extraction (easy to do when u and m and n are just 
scribbles).

Groom Surname 	Groom Given Name 	Event Day and Month 	Event Year 
Place 	Bride Surname 	Bride Given Name 	Film or Item 	Page Number 
Register 	Remarks
Stebner 	Heinrich 	25 Jan 	1882 	Heimtal Parish 	Schnneland 	Juliane 
1897596/1 	974 	14 	



I can find nothing on either Heinrich Stebner or Julianna Schmuland 
other than the marriage record in either the MPD or the PRI, but it 
appears that a sister to Julianna is listed as follows in the St. 
Petersburg birth records:

Surname 	Given Name 	Birth Day and Month 	Birth Year 	Event Place 
Father 	Mother 	Film or Item 	Page Number 	Register 	Remarks
Schmuland 	Emilie 	24-Dec 	1868 	Gruenthal 	Gottfried 	Pischle , 
Justine 	1884113/1 	163 	4 	


There is also a Schmuland St. Petersburg death where the mother was a 
Stebner (there MAY be a connection) as follows

Schumland 	Andreas 	04 Mar 	1885 	Ellinow, Wlad. 	
	Stebner 	Susanna 	1897692/1 	591 	1285


Since Julianna and her parents do not seem to appear in the St. 
Petersburg records before the 1882 marriage, it would appear that they 
arrived in Volhynia shortly before the 1882 marriage.   Unless you know 
the names of Gottfried's parents, I do not see enough to find him.

I note, finally that the PRI indicates Schmuland family in the Lublin 
area in the 1870s, so they may have passed through that area to get to 
Volhynia.

Gary Warner

Doncarolea at aol.com wrote:
> My grandfather, Heinrich Stebner, married my grandmother, Julianna  
> Schmuland, on Jan 25, 1882 in Heimtal, Volhynia.  I believe that he was  born July 25, 
> 1860 and that she was born in 1865. Her parents were  Gottfried Schmuland and 
> Justine Pischl.  They emigrated to America in  1913.
> I would like to know the towns in which they were born, the names of  
> Heinrich Stebner's parents and where both of the German Lutheran families  originally 
> came from.  I would appreciate any assistance.
>  
>  
> Don Anderson
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
>   


From jankohl57 at aol.com  Sat Feb 28 09:33:49 2009
From: jankohl57 at aol.com (jankohl57@aol.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:33:49 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DREGER, MEISSNER, WENDLAND,
	MILBRADT and ZYRARDOW
Message-ID: <8CB67E1D998FA8C-D80-30E0@webmail-dg03.sysops.aol.com>


Hi folks..just wondering if anyone knows of any local genealogy or historical web sites for the ZYRARDOW, WISKITKI, BLONIE area just west of Warsaw.? Also, I seem to recall someone mentioning a website that you can look up cities/towns by their old name and see what they were called in Russian, German or Polish, and what they are called now.? Can someone direct me to that please?? 
There is a city just west of Warsaw called Piastow.? What other names has this been called?? I haven't been to SGGEE for a while, so I will re-post may family names of DREGER, MEISSNER, WENDLAND AND MILDRADT. 
Thank you..Janine Gulich


From deloresstevens at sasktel.net  Sat Feb 28 09:49:22 2009
From: deloresstevens at sasktel.net (Delores Stevens)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:49:22 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DREGER, MEISSNER, WENDLAND,
	MILBRADT and ZYRARDOW
References: <8CB67E1D998FA8C-D80-30E0@webmail-dg03.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <003801c999cc$e40c28b0$2e1ae143@Delores>

Hi Janine

Am responding as I too am researching DREGER, and have not visited the SGGEE 
site in a while.

Delores Maduke
Saskatoon 



From jfcmurphy at ntcnet.com  Sat Feb 28 12:43:07 2009
From: jfcmurphy at ntcnet.com (James Murphy)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:43:07 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] older map site
Message-ID: <55DF3BE4F5E543298361D9FD5DD1F07F@hal>

To Janine & Delores,
This is a website that gives older maps of Europe including Poland & Russia. This may be of help in locating your cites: www.feefhs.org/maplibrary.html
Carol
jfcmurphy at ntcnet.com

From maurmike1 at verizon.net  Sat Feb 28 12:58:20 2009
From: maurmike1 at verizon.net (MIKE MCHENRY)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:58:20 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DREGER, MEISSNER, WENDLAND,
	MILBRADT and ZYRARDOW
In-Reply-To: <8CB67E1D998FA8C-D80-30E0@webmail-dg03.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CB67E1D998FA8C-D80-30E0@webmail-dg03.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c999e7$49f248c0$ddd6da40$@net>

You might try Jutta Dennerlein's http://www.upstreamvistula.org has quite a
bit about the area.

 
MIKE

maurmike1 at verizon.net

-----Original Message-----
From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
[mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of
jankohl57 at aol.com
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 12:34 PM
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DREGER, MEISSNER, WENDLAND, MILBRADT and
ZYRARDOW


Hi folks..just wondering if anyone knows of any local genealogy or
historical web sites for the ZYRARDOW, WISKITKI, BLONIE area just west of
Warsaw.? Also, I seem to recall someone mentioning a website that you can
look up cities/towns by their old name and see what they were called in
Russian, German or Polish, and what they are called now.? Can someone direct
me to that please?? 
There is a city just west of Warsaw called Piastow.? What other names has
this been called?? I haven't been to SGGEE for a while, so I will re-post
may family names of DREGER, MEISSNER, WENDLAND AND MILDRADT. 
Thank you..Janine Gulich

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv



From maurmike1 at verizon.net  Sat Feb 28 13:03:23 2009
From: maurmike1 at verizon.net (MIKE MCHENRY)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 16:03:23 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] older map site
In-Reply-To: <55DF3BE4F5E543298361D9FD5DD1F07F@hal>
References: <55DF3BE4F5E543298361D9FD5DD1F07F@hal>
Message-ID: <000d01c999e7$fe956af0$fbc040d0$@net>

You might also try http://www.mapywig.org/news.php . It has inter war maps
1919-1939 of Poland. They are extremely detailed.

 
MIKE

maurmike1 at verizon.net


-----Original Message-----
From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
[mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of James
Murphy
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 3:43 PM
To: German-Poland
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] older map site

To Janine & Delores,
This is a website that gives older maps of Europe including Poland & Russia.
This may be of help in locating your cites: www.feefhs.org/maplibrary.html
Carol
jfcmurphy at ntcnet.com

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv



From cmduff at redwing.net  Sat Feb 28 13:21:16 2009
From: cmduff at redwing.net (Carol Duff)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:21:16 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Dreger
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1235851202.4223.ger-poland-volhynia@eclipse.sggee.org>
References: <mailman.1.1235851202.4223.ger-poland-volhynia@eclipse.sggee.org>
Message-ID: 4c4b22cc7ecf8111546f79ca5818a054


> There are a lot of Dregers in Volhynia also, and from there to Alberta Canada. Part of my Schumann, Freimann families tie in there. Carol
>   


From FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca  Sat Feb 28 15:47:45 2009
From: FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 16:47:45 -0700
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DREGER, MEISSNER, WENDLAND,
 MILBRADT and ZYRARDOW
In-Reply-To: <8CB67E1D998FA8C-D80-30E0@webmail-dg03.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CB67E1D998FA8C-D80-30E0@webmail-dg03.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <49A9CD21.30200@shaw.ca>

Janine,

The four place names you mention have always been known by those names 
in any language.  They are all original Polish and I have no record of 
any German or Russian versions that vary from that.  It is possible they 
were renamed with German versions in the WW II period but I have no 
record of it.

I don't know of any sites for these locations specific to genealogy.  A 
GOOGLE search shows that they all have their own websites, most of 
course in the Polish language.  Zyarardow at least has a section of 
historical photos, most detailing the cloth making industry in that 
area.  Our own SGGEE site has a page dedicated to Zyarardow.



Jerry Frank
Calgary, AB



jankohl57 at aol.com wrote:
> Hi folks..just wondering if anyone knows of any local genealogy or historical web sites for the ZYRARDOW, WISKITKI, BLONIE area just west of Warsaw.? Also, I seem to recall someone mentioning a website that you can look up cities/towns by their old name and see what they were called in Russian, German or Polish, and what they are called now.? Can someone direct me to that please?? 
> There is a city just west of Warsaw called Piastow.? What other names has this been called?? I haven't been to SGGEE for a while, so I will re-post may family names of DREGER, MEISSNER, WENDLAND AND MILDRADT. 
> Thank you..Janine Gulich
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv
>
>   


From joepessarra at suddenlink.net  Sat Feb 28 16:59:50 2009
From: joepessarra at suddenlink.net (joepessarra)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 18:59:50 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DREGER, MEISSNER, WENDLAND,
	MILBRADT and ZYRARDOW
In-Reply-To: <8CB67E1D998FA8C-D80-30E0@webmail-dg03.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CB67E1D998FA8C-D80-30E0@webmail-dg03.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <000001c99a09$068c2200$13a46600$@net>

Hi Janine,

At least one good website for looking up towns in Eastern Europe is the
Jewish Gen ShtetlSeeker at http://www.jewishgen.org/Communities/LocTown.asp 

Zyrardow seems to have no other spelling, Wiskitki is also shown as Wiskiti,
Blonie seems to have no other spelling, and Piastow seems to have no other
spelling.

Let me know directly if you need help with the ShtetlSeeker.

Polish phone directory at http://www.ksiazka-telefoniczna.com/ has the
following information.

Zyrardow has no Dreger, no Meissner, no Wendland, and no Milbradt listings.

Blonie has no Dreger, 2 Meissner, no Wendland, and no Milbradt listings.

Piastow has no Dreger, no Meissner, no Wendland, and no Milbradt listings.

Warszawa has 15 Dreger, 10 Meissner, 3 Wendland, and no Milbradt listings.

Maybe some distant cousins to contact?

Let me know directly if you need help with the Poland phone directory.

Good luck on your search.

Joe in Texas

-----Original Message-----
From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
[mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of
jankohl57 at aol.com
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 11:34 AM
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DREGER, MEISSNER, WENDLAND, MILBRADT and
ZYRARDOW


Hi folks..just wondering if anyone knows of any local genealogy or
historical web sites for the ZYRARDOW, WISKITKI, BLONIE area just west of
Warsaw.? Also, I seem to recall someone mentioning a website that you can
look up cities/towns by their old name and see what they were called in
Russian, German or Polish, and what they are called now.? Can someone direct
me to that please?? 
There is a city just west of Warsaw called Piastow.? What other names has
this been called?? I haven't been to SGGEE for a while, so I will re-post
may family names of DREGER, MEISSNER, WENDLAND AND MILDRADT. 
Thank you..Janine Gulich

_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv



From mackzie at earthlink.net  Sat Feb 28 17:03:14 2009
From: mackzie at earthlink.net (Beth Burke)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 19:03:14 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Help from the experts!
In-Reply-To: <000c01c999e7$49f248c0$ddd6da40$@net>
References: <8CB67E1D998FA8C-D80-30E0@webmail-dg03.sysops.aol.com>
	<000c01c999e7$49f248c0$ddd6da40$@net>
Message-ID: <000301c99a09$80de5f50$829b1df0$@net>

In a written account of my grandmother's early years and immigration, she
often referred to the city of Dubechna (spelled phoenetically).  I believe
it might be around/near Lublin, but I don't know for sure.  

I am researching the names Friedrich (Gustav), Lieske, Glor and Zellmer.
The first two surnames are from my mother's side and the second two are from
my father's side.  Oddly enough, records that I have all seem to indicate
that they came from the same general area around Lublin.  I don't have any
evidence that they knew each other, but after immigration to the USA (and
some to Alberta, CA) they eventually ended up in northeastern Wisconsin.  

Any information that all of you - the experts - might have or if you can
point me in any new directions - would truly be appreciated.

Beth Burke
Verona, WI




From joepessarra at suddenlink.net  Sat Feb 28 19:30:59 2009
From: joepessarra at suddenlink.net (joepessarra)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 21:30:59 -0600
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Help from the experts!
In-Reply-To: <000301c99a09$80de5f50$829b1df0$@net>
References: <8CB67E1D998FA8C-D80-30E0@webmail-dg03.sysops.aol.com>	<000c01c999e7$49f248c0$ddd6da40$@net>
	<000301c99a09$80de5f50$829b1df0$@net>
Message-ID: <000301c99a1e$23d55650$6b8002f0$@net>

Hi Beth,

ShtetlSeeker at http://www.jewishgen.org/Communities/LocTown.asp finds these
towns close in spelling/pronunciation, and close to Lublin, but not all in
Poland.

Dubeczno populated place 51?26' N 23?26' E  E M U G Poland  39.5 miles ENE
of Lublin 51?15' N 22?34' E

Dubechno populated place 51?55' N 24?03' E  E M U G Belarus  78.5 miles NE
of Lublin 51?15' N 22?34' E 
 
Dubechno, Dubechnoye, Dubeczno populated place 51?33' N 24?22' E  E M U G
Ukraine  80.3 miles ENE of Lublin 51?15' N 22?34' E

Poland phone directory at http://www.ksiazka-telefoniczna.com/ shows the
following:

Dubeczno has no listings for Friedrich, Lieske, Glor and Zellmer.

Lublin has 2 listings for Friedrich, no listings for Lieske, Glor, and
Zellmer.

Not a lot of help.  But, there are others in this group who can give you
some better help, I am sure.

Good luck.

Joe in Texas

-----Original Message-----
From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
[mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of Beth
Burke
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 7:03 PM
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Help from the experts!

In a written account of my grandmother's early years and immigration, she
often referred to the city of Dubechna (spelled phoenetically).  I believe
it might be around/near Lublin, but I don't know for sure.  

I am researching the names Friedrich (Gustav), Lieske, Glor and Zellmer.
The first two surnames are from my mother's side and the second two are from
my father's side.  Oddly enough, records that I have all seem to indicate
that they came from the same general area around Lublin.  I don't have any
evidence that they knew each other, but after immigration to the USA (and
some to Alberta, CA) they eventually ended up in northeastern Wisconsin.  

Any information that all of you - the experts - might have or if you can
point me in any new directions - would truly be appreciated.

Beth Burke
Verona, WI



_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv




From dabookk54 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 28 19:39:24 2009
From: dabookk54 at yahoo.com (Karl Krueger)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 19:39:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Help from the experts!
In-Reply-To: <000301c99a1e$23d55650$6b8002f0$@net>
Message-ID: <953647.71855.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Dear Beth,
When did they leave Dubeczno. If they stayed there until 1940 then a volunteer is now working on this area in EWZ. I could put you in contact with her if they stayed there that long.

Otherwise keep an eye on our Lublin database. They may show up in there too.
Karl

--- On Sat, 2/28/09, joepessarra <joepessarra at suddenlink.net> wrote:
From: joepessarra <joepessarra at suddenlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Help from the experts!
To: "'Beth Burke'" <mackzie at earthlink.net>
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Date: Saturday, February 28, 2009, 10:30 PM

Hi Beth,

ShtetlSeeker at http://www.jewishgen.org/Communities/LocTown.asp finds these
towns close in spelling/pronunciation, and close to Lublin, but not all in
Poland.

Dubeczno populated place 51?26' N 23?26' E  E M U G Poland  39.5
miles ENE
of Lublin 51?15' N 22?34' E

Dubechno populated place 51?55' N 24?03' E  E M U G Belarus  78.5
miles NE
of Lublin 51?15' N 22?34' E 
 
Dubechno, Dubechnoye, Dubeczno populated place 51?33' N 24?22' E  E M
U G
Ukraine  80.3 miles ENE of Lublin 51?15' N 22?34' E

Poland phone directory at http://www.ksiazka-telefoniczna.com/ shows the
following:

Dubeczno has no listings for Friedrich, Lieske, Glor and Zellmer.

Lublin has 2 listings for Friedrich, no listings for Lieske, Glor, and
Zellmer.

Not a lot of help.  But, there are others in this group who can give you
some better help, I am sure.

Good luck.

Joe in Texas

-----Original Message-----
From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
[mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of Beth
Burke
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 7:03 PM
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Help from the experts!

In a written account of my grandmother's early years and immigration, she
often referred to the city of Dubechna (spelled phoenetically).  I believe
it might be around/near Lublin, but I don't know for sure.  

I am researching the names Friedrich (Gustav), Lieske, Glor and Zellmer.
The first two surnames are from my mother's side and the second two are
from
my father's side.  Oddly enough, records that I have all seem to indicate
that they came from the same general area around Lublin.  I don't have any
evidence that they knew each other, but after immigration to the USA (and
some to Alberta, CA) they eventually ended up in northeastern Wisconsin.  

Any information that all of you - the experts - might have or if you can
point me in any new directions - would truly be appreciated.

Beth Burke
Verona, WI



_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
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From jguasch at fastmail.net  Sat Feb 28 20:10:26 2009
From: jguasch at fastmail.net (Joyce Guasch)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 20:10:26 -0800
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Help from the experts!
In-Reply-To: <953647.71855.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <000301c99a1e$23d55650$6b8002f0$@net>
	<953647.71855.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CB594E83125A4EEFA81A78EFF99921AD@desktop2008>

Hello Beth,

My father and his siblings were born in Dubeczno. I'm the volunteer who has
extracted family names from the EWZ records of WWII. I have Friedrich,
Lieske, and Zelmer (one L) but no Glor. If you think any of these people
could be family members living there during WWII, I may be able to help by
emailing you copies of the records.

Joyce Welke Guasch
Springfield, OR USA
formerly Rainier, OR USA
Researching Welke, Zimmerman,
Jesse, Gurke, Ratz, Lentz, Pirsch, Arndt
of East Poland


-----Original Message-----
From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
[mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of Karl
Krueger
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 7:39 PM
To: 'Beth Burke'
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Help from the experts!

Dear Beth,
When did they leave Dubeczno. If they stayed there until 1940 then a
volunteer is now working on this area in EWZ. I could put you in contact
with her if they stayed there that long.

Otherwise keep an eye on our Lublin database. They may show up in there too.
Karl

--- On Sat, 2/28/09, joepessarra <joepessarra at suddenlink.net> wrote:
From: joepessarra <joepessarra at suddenlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Help from the experts!
To: "'Beth Burke'" <mackzie at earthlink.net>
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Date: Saturday, February 28, 2009, 10:30 PM

Hi Beth,

ShtetlSeeker at http://www.jewishgen.org/Communities/LocTown.asp finds these
towns close in spelling/pronunciation, and close to Lublin, but not all in
Poland.

Dubeczno populated place 51?26' N 23?26' E  E M U G Poland  39.5 miles ENE
of Lublin 51?15' N 22?34' E

Dubechno populated place 51?55' N 24?03' E  E M U G Belarus  78.5 miles NE
of Lublin 51?15' N 22?34' E 
 
Dubechno, Dubechnoye, Dubeczno populated place 51?33' N 24?22' E  E M U G
Ukraine  80.3 miles ENE of Lublin 51?15' N 22?34' E

Poland phone directory at http://www.ksiazka-telefoniczna.com/ shows the
following:

Dubeczno has no listings for Friedrich, Lieske, Glor and Zellmer.

Lublin has 2 listings for Friedrich, no listings for Lieske, Glor, and
Zellmer.

Not a lot of help.  But, there are others in this group who can give you
some better help, I am sure.

Good luck.

Joe in Texas

-----Original Message-----
From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
[mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of Beth
Burke
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 7:03 PM
To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Help from the experts!

In a written account of my grandmother's early years and immigration, she
often referred to the city of Dubechna (spelled phoenetically).  I believe
it might be around/near Lublin, but I don't know for sure.  

I am researching the names Friedrich (Gustav), Lieske, Glor and Zellmer.
The first two surnames are from my mother's side and the second two are from
my father's side.  Oddly enough, records that I have all seem to indicate
that they came from the same general area around Lublin.  I don't have any
evidence that they knew each other, but after immigration to the USA (and
some to Alberta, CA) they eventually ended up in northeastern Wisconsin.  

Any information that all of you - the experts - might have or if you can
point me in any new directions - would truly be appreciated.

Beth Burke
Verona, WI



_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German Genealogy in
Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at
http://www.sggee.org/listserv



_______________________________________________
Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German Genealogy in
Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at
http://www.sggee.org/listserv



      

_______________________________________________
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Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at
http://www.sggee.org/listserv




From albertmuth at aol.com  Sat Feb 28 20:26:50 2009
From: albertmuth at aol.com (albertmuth@aol.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 23:26:50 -0500
Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Joyce Guash, this is for you!
In-Reply-To: <CB594E83125A4EEFA81A78EFF99921AD@desktop2008>
References: <000301c99a1e$23d55650$6b8002f0$@net><953647.71855.qm@web55303.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<CB594E83125A4EEFA81A78EFF99921AD@desktop2008>
Message-ID: <8CB683D132E850B-16A0-3AA@WEBMAIL-DC16.sysops.aol.com>

I lurk on this website without saying much.? SGGEE has so many knowledgeable people, willing to help.
I throw my two cents out when I have something substantive to say.

Joyce, your greatgrandparents Daniel Gurke and Eleonore Ratz were married at Lipno 6 Mar 1859.? Film 0714861, 1859 #18
Chat with me privately.

Al Muth
Livonia, MI

-----Original Message-----
From: Joyce Guasch <jguasch at fastmail.net>
To: 'Beth Burke' <mackzie at earthlink.net>
Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
Sent: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:10 pm
Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Help from the experts!



Hello Beth,
My father and his siblings were born in Dubeczno. I'm the volunteer who has
xtracted family names from the EWZ records of WWII. I have Friedrich,
ieske, and Zelmer (one L) but no Glor. If you think any of these people
ould be family members living there during WWII, I may be able to help by
mailing you copies of the records.
Joyce Welke Guasch
pringfield, OR USA
ormerly Rainier, OR USA
esearching Welke, Zimmerman,
esse, Gurke, Ratz, Lentz, Pirsch, Arndt
f East Poland

----Original Message-----
rom: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of Karl
rueger
ent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 7:39 PM
o: 'Beth Burke'
c: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
ubject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Help from the experts!
Dear Beth,
hen did they leave Dubeczno. If they stayed there until 1940 then a
olunteer is now working on this area in EWZ. I could put you in contact
ith her if they stayed there that20long.
Otherwise keep an eye on our Lublin database. They may show up in there too.
arl
--- On Sat, 2/28/09, joepessarra <joepessarra at suddenlink.net> wrote:
rom: joepessarra <joepessarra at suddenlink.net>
ubject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Help from the experts!
o: "'Beth Burke'" <mackzie at earthlink.net>
c: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
ate: Saturday, February 28, 2009, 10:30 PM
Hi Beth,
ShtetlSeeker at http://www.jewishgen.org/Communities/LocTown.asp finds these
owns close in spelling/pronunciation, and close to Lublin, but not all in
oland.
Dubeczno populated place 51?26' N 23?26' E  E M U G Poland  39.5 miles ENE
f Lublin 51?15' N 22?34' E
Dubechno populated place 51?55' N 24?03' E  E M U G Belarus  78.5 miles NE
f Lublin 51?15' N 22?34' E 

ubechno, Dubechnoye, Dubeczno populated place 51?33' N 24?22' E  E M U G
kraine  80.3 miles ENE of Lublin 51?15' N 22?34' E
Poland phone directory at http://www.ksiazka-telefoniczna.com/ shows the
ollowing:
Dubeczno has no listings for Friedrich, Lieske, Glor and Zellmer.
Lublin has 2 listings for Friedrich, no listings for Lieske, Glor, and
ellmer.
Not a lot of help.  But, there are others in this group who can give you
ome better help, I am sure.
Good luck.
Joe in Texas
-----Original Message-----
rom: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org
mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of Beth
urke
ent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 7:03 PM
o: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org
ubject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Help from the experts!
In a written account of my grandmoth
er's early years and immigration, she
ften referred to the city of Dubechna (spelled phoenetically).  I believe
t might be around/near Lublin, but I don't know for sure.  
I am researching the names Friedrich (Gustav), Lieske, Glor and Zellmer.
he first two surnames are from my mother's side and the second two are from
y father's side.  Oddly enough, records that I have all seem to indicate
hat they came from the same general area around Lublin.  I don't have any
vidence that they knew each other, but after immigration to the USA (and
ome to Alberta, CA) they eventually ended up in northeastern Wisconsin.  
Any information that all of you - the experts - might have or if you can
oint me in any new directions - would truly be appreciated.
Beth Burke
erona, WI

_______________________________________________
er-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German Genealogy in
astern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at
ttp://www.sggee.org/listserv

_______________________________________________
er-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German Genealogy in
astern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at
ttp://www.sggee.org/listserv

      
_______________________________________________
er-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German Genealogy in
astern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at
ttp://www.sggee.org/listserv

_______________________________________________
er-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by
ociety for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org
ailing list info at http://www.
sggee.org/listserv