From lewisinwaterloo at sympatico.ca Wed Oct 1 12:11:47 2008 From: lewisinwaterloo at sympatico.ca (Susie Lewis) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 19:11:47 +0000 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 65, Issue 1 Message-ID: Here is another web site for tracing people. This web site costs some but does a five prong search (one of the prongs is the Red Cross mentioned previously). I have used this site successfully to find a number of my people. I have received military records as well as received a grave location. It takes a long time but sure was worth it. After over 60 years of not knowing we finally received some answers, so a few months wait was nothing in comparison. Susie ----Original Message Follows---- From: ger-poland-volhynia-request at eclipse.sggee.org Reply-To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org Subject: Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 65, Issue 1 Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 12:00:03 -0700 Send Ger-Poland-Volhynia mailing list submissions to ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://eclipse.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ger-poland-volhynia-request at eclipse.sggee.org You can reach the person managing the list at ger-poland-volhynia-owner at eclipse.sggee.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Ger-Poland-Volhynia digest..." Today's Topics: 1. DRK Suchdienst (Dr. Frank Stewner) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 22:53:41 +0200 From: "Dr. Frank Stewner" Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DRK Suchdienst To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" The link to the page in english is: https://www.drk-suchdienst.eu/content/categoryshow.php?CatID=2&lang=en -------------------------------------------- Frank Stewner ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Ger-Poland-Volhynia mailing list, hosted by the: Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv.html End of Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 65, Issue 1 ************************************************** From dnmiller at whiz.to Wed Oct 1 13:22:19 2008 From: dnmiller at whiz.to (Don Miller) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 13:22:19 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Volhynian Village Adventure Tours Message-ID: <005501c92403$67461dc0$6501a8c0@DonMiller> Announcement: The next Volhynian Village Adventure Tour to Ukraine will be September 6-20, 2009. Details on my website will be available shortly; also a report of this last year's tour in May. Don Miller Tour Leader From sonnal at shaw.ca Wed Oct 1 19:15:07 2008 From: sonnal at shaw.ca (Leo Sonnenberg) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 19:15:07 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships Message-ID: <48E42EAB.7020906@shaw.ca> I recently received a list of ancestors on my father's side back to 1790 from a cousin in Germany. I was surprised to see that my grandfather on my mother's side was also on the list. My mother is a great granddaughter to the common ancestor and my father is a great great grandson to the common ancestor. I am both a great great grandson through my mother and a great great great grandson through my father. My questions are - A. what cousins are my parents to each other and B. what am I to my distant grandfather? How would I classify myself - a two great grandson or a three great grandson? So who am I? Also, does this situation occur very often? Any definition of my relationship to my distant grandfather is welcome (including any jokes). Leo Sonnenberg From otto at schienke.com Wed Oct 1 19:47:31 2008 From: otto at schienke.com (Otto) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 22:47:31 -0400 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships In-Reply-To: <48E42EAB.7020906@shaw.ca> References: <48E42EAB.7020906@shaw.ca> Message-ID: Evening, use the relationship chart I sent you to establish your legal designation. On the mother/father query simply separate kinship into paternal/ maternal sides. You are both. On Oct 1, 2008, at 10:15 PM, Leo Sonnenberg wrote: > > I recently received a list of ancestors on my father's side back to > 1790 > from a cousin in Germany. I was surprised to see that my grandfather > on > my mother's side was also on the list. > My mother is a great granddaughter to the common ancestor and my > father > is a great great grandson to the common ancestor. I am both a great > great grandson through my mother and a great great great grandson > through my father. > > My questions are - A. what cousins are my parents to each other and > B. > what am I to my distant grandfather? How would I classify myself - a > two great grandson or a three great grandson? So who am I? > > Also, does this situation occur very often? > > Any definition of my relationship to my distant grandfather is welcome > (including any jokes). > > Leo Sonnenberg > . . . Otto " The Zen moment..." wk. of March 23, 2008- ________________________________ "Each of us. . . A bundle of possibilities." From gary at warnerengineering.com Wed Oct 1 20:52:38 2008 From: gary at warnerengineering.com (Gary Warner) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 20:52:38 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships In-Reply-To: <48E42EAB.7020906@shaw.ca> References: <48E42EAB.7020906@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <48E44586.9030601@warnerengineering.com> Leo, If you believe that Adam and Eve were real people, then it is apparent that our pedigree cannot keep increasing in the number of unrelated grandparents indefinitely as your count generations back in time. In order to get back to Adam and Eve, and also in order to reflect the fact that fewer and fewer people were alive every century that a clock is turned back, some of our ancestors NEED to be the same people- that is, our pedigree chart has to start collapsing by virtue of multiple lines becoming the repetetive. In order to answer your question about how your parents are related, there are two ways to do that: 1.) you either need to manually start at a common ancestor in each line and figure out how each generation is related; or 2.) it is easier if a computer program like Legacy figures it out for you, but then you need to enter the data into the program to do that (you really need to do that anyway if you are going to preserve the information you found). If there are multiple people that you have in common in the lines (not that uncommon), then you have multiple relationships to figure out. Your parents could easily be 5th or 6th or 7th cousins, or possibly all three. 1st generation- a single person is himself or herself 2nd generation- relationship is siblings 3rd generation- relationship is 1st cousins 4th generation- relationship is 2nd cousins If one of the generational lines gets out of step with another one in time, as happens when one line has children at age 20, and the other one has children at age 40 and then the children of one line marry the grandchildren of another line, then the relationship becomes once removed. For instance, my father had me when he was in his mid forties, and his siblings had their children when they were in there 20s. So I am 20 or more years younger than my first cousins, and my 1st cousin's children are the same age as I am- each of those children are therefore my 1st cousin once removed. Gary Warner Leo Sonnenberg wrote: > I recently received a list of ancestors on my father's side back to 1790 > from a cousin in Germany. I was surprised to see that my grandfather on > my mother's side was also on the list. > My mother is a great granddaughter to the common ancestor and my father > is a great great grandson to the common ancestor. I am both a great > great grandson through my mother and a great great great grandson > through my father. > > My questions are - A. what cousins are my parents to each other and B. > what am I to my distant grandfather? How would I classify myself - a > two great grandson or a three great grandson? So who am I? > > Also, does this situation occur very often? > > Any definition of my relationship to my distant grandfather is welcome > (including any jokes). > > Leo Sonnenberg > > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv > From FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca Wed Oct 1 21:06:07 2008 From: FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 22:06:07 -0600 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships In-Reply-To: <48E42EAB.7020906@shaw.ca> References: <48E42EAB.7020906@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <796o8r$1i9j0h@pd2mo1so-svcs.prod.shaw.ca> If I charted it correctly - Your father and mother are 2nd cousins once removed. You are your father's 3rd cousin. You are your mother's 2nd cousin twice removed. You and your siblings are 3rd cousins once removed. I have no idea how common this situation is. My wife's parents (Volga German descendants) were fourth cousins. Complicate this even more so with her g.grandfather on her father's side marrying a 2nd cousin and the relationships get really messy. Jerry Frank - Calgary, Alberta FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca At 08:15 PM 01/10/2008, Leo Sonnenberg wrote: >I recently received a list of ancestors on my father's side back to 1790 >from a cousin in Germany. I was surprised to see that my grandfather on >my mother's side was also on the list. >My mother is a great granddaughter to the common ancestor and my father >is a great great grandson to the common ancestor. I am both a great >great grandson through my mother and a great great great grandson >through my father. > >My questions are - A. what cousins are my parents to each other and B. >what am I to my distant grandfather? How would I classify myself - a >two great grandson or a three great grandson? So who am I? > >Also, does this situation occur very often? > >Any definition of my relationship to my distant grandfather is welcome >(including any jokes). > >Leo Sonnenberg > From dabookk54 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 06:25:12 2008 From: dabookk54 at yahoo.com (Karl Krueger) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 06:25:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships In-Reply-To: <48E42EAB.7020906@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <708126.74564.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Leo, Others have already explained the relationships you were wondering about. Your other question about how often does this kind of thing happen was not answered though. The answer to that question is this happens very often among the German communities throughout this area. Think of? having a restricted population of hundreds to maybe a couple thousand people from which you can choose your spouse. In the first generation it is easy to find an unrelated person to marry. But with each subsequent generation it will be more difficulat to find someone completely unrelated to you. It will only take a few generations before you find the majority of the population interelated to each other. I have noticed this phenomenon studying EWZ records where my parents/grandparents came from. I found so many interrelationships betweens different branches of my distant relatives that my family was never aware before I started building this database. Most people I know now through SGGEE whose ancestors came from the Lublin area are either related to me (2nd-5th cousins) or are related to others of my relatives (1st or 2nd cousins). ? Secondly,?two other?drivers for marrying was who your family knew and economic pressures to retain ownership of farm land. These factors tended to?encourage marrying someone related to you. Cousins marrying each other was not uncommon. In rare instances marrying an uncle/aunt or even step daughter have been found. They were not aware of the benefit of genetic diversity or the dangers of avoiding it. In our society we have a better understanding of the genetic implications and thus we avoid marrying relatives. Karl --- On Wed, 10/1/08, Leo Sonnenberg wrote: From: Leo Sonnenberg Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 10:15 PM I recently received a list of ancestors on my father's side back to 1790 from a cousin in Germany. I was surprised to see that my grandfather on my mother's side was also on the list. My mother is a great granddaughter to the common ancestor and my father is a great great grandson to the common ancestor. I am both a great great grandson through my mother and a great great great grandson through my father. My questions are - A. what cousins are my parents to each other and B. what am I to my distant grandfather? How would I classify myself - a two great grandson or a three great grandson? So who am I? Also, does this situation occur very often? Any definition of my relationship to my distant grandfather is welcome (including any jokes). Leo Sonnenberg _______________________________________________ Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv From otto at schienke.com Thu Oct 2 13:01:40 2008 From: otto at schienke.com (Otto) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:01:40 -0400 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Genetic Relationship Message-ID: <82D8B1D8-637A-41A9-B4AF-6FE9438DA3CE@schienke.com> Afternoon Cousins all, It has been raining here for four days so I'll add a brief comment on relatedness. After all, that is what genealogy is about, 'relatedness'. We sum up the known past and humans represent about one tenth of one percent of Earth's history. Regardless of ethnicity or race, we need go no further back than the 50th cousin to be related to everyone alive. MOST relationships are much closer than that. Especially our 'group'. When we marry spouses they are more than a marriage relationship, spouses are cousins, blood relatives! An averaged calculation based on what if: If we have (4) 1st. cousins (16) 2nd. cousins (64) 3rd. cousins (250) 4th. cousins (1000) 5th. cousins We would have 1,000,000 cousins by the time we reached 10th. cousins. Reproduction is not random. Societal rules come into play. Rules of Exogomy, rules of outbreeding. Rules of Endogomy, rules of inbreeding. Rules of endogomy were generally enforced less rigorously than rules of exogomy. As has already been discussed, in small farm communities, rules of endogomy were viewed with a sleepy eye. Even in this 21st century we hear stringent views regarding exogomy in marriages as individuals discuss genealogy. "She married a what!?" . . . Otto " The Zen moment..." wk. of March 23, 2008- ________________________________ "Each of us. . . A bundle of possibilities." From otto at schienke.com Thu Oct 2 15:32:20 2008 From: otto at schienke.com (Otto) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 18:32:20 -0400 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Genetic Relationship -Correction Message-ID: Ooops. . . I just read my copy of the E-letter sent and noted I used a spelling not too familiar or incorrect. If you google use this spelling: Rules of Endogamy Rules of Exogamy The spellings used previously with an 'o'. Endogomy Exogomy . . . Otto " The Zen moment..." wk. of March 23, 2008- ________________________________ "Each of us. . . A bundle of possibilities." From lewisinwaterloo at sympatico.ca Thu Oct 2 18:54:10 2008 From: lewisinwaterloo at sympatico.ca (Susie Lewis) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 01:54:10 +0000 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 65, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Further to my previous post, it seems that the web site some how disapeared. Here it is: www.dd-wast.de click on 'english version' then go to 'Tracing request' scroll down a bit, another paragraph in english will appear below and slightly to the right of the german one. keep scrolling down click on 'Private matters' from there you fill out the form. Susie ----Original Message Follows---- From: ger-poland-volhynia-request at eclipse.sggee.org Reply-To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org Subject: Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 65, Issue 2 Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 12:00:02 -0700 Send Ger-Poland-Volhynia mailing list submissions to ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://eclipse.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ger-poland-volhynia-request at eclipse.sggee.org You can reach the person managing the list at ger-poland-volhynia-owner at eclipse.sggee.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Ger-Poland-Volhynia digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 65, Issue 1 (Susie Lewis) 2. Volhynian Village Adventure Tours (Don Miller) 3. Figuring Relationships (Leo Sonnenberg) 4. Re: Figuring Relationships (Otto) 5. Re: Figuring Relationships (Gary Warner) 6. Re: Figuring Relationships (Jerry Frank) 7. Re: Figuring Relationships (Karl Krueger) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 19:11:47 +0000 From: "Susie Lewis" Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 65, Issue 1 To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Here is another web site for tracing people. This web site costs some but does a five prong search (one of the prongs is the Red Cross mentioned previously). I have used this site successfully to find a number of my people. I have received military records as well as received a grave location. It takes a long time but sure was worth it. After over 60 years of not knowing we finally received some answers, so a few months wait was nothing in comparison. Susie ----Original Message Follows---- From: ger-poland-volhynia-request at eclipse.sggee.org Reply-To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org Subject: Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 65, Issue 1 Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 12:00:03 -0700 Send Ger-Poland-Volhynia mailing list submissions to ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://eclipse.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ger-poland-volhynia-request at eclipse.sggee.org You can reach the person managing the list at ger-poland-volhynia-owner at eclipse.sggee.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Ger-Poland-Volhynia digest..." Today's Topics: 1. DRK Suchdienst (Dr. Frank Stewner) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 22:53:41 +0200 From: "Dr. Frank Stewner" Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] DRK Suchdienst To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" The link to the page in english is: https://www.drk-suchdienst.eu/content/categoryshow.php?CatID=2&lang=en -------------------------------------------- Frank Stewner ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Ger-Poland-Volhynia mailing list, hosted by the: Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv.html End of Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 65, Issue 1 ************************************************** ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 13:22:19 -0700 From: "Don Miller" Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Volhynian Village Adventure Tours To: "Volhnia Mailing List" Message-ID: <005501c92403$67461dc0$6501a8c0 at DonMiller> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Announcement: The next Volhynian Village Adventure Tour to Ukraine will be September 6-20, 2009. Details on my website will be available shortly; also a report of this last year's tour in May. Don Miller Tour Leader ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 19:15:07 -0700 From: Leo Sonnenberg Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org Message-ID: <48E42EAB.7020906 at shaw.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I recently received a list of ancestors on my father's side back to 1790 from a cousin in Germany. I was surprised to see that my grandfather on my mother's side was also on the list. My mother is a great granddaughter to the common ancestor and my father is a great great grandson to the common ancestor. I am both a great great grandson through my mother and a great great great grandson through my father. My questions are - A. what cousins are my parents to each other and B. what am I to my distant grandfather? How would I classify myself - a two great grandson or a three great grandson? So who am I? Also, does this situation occur very often? Any definition of my relationship to my distant grandfather is welcome (including any jokes). Leo Sonnenberg ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 22:47:31 -0400 From: Otto Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships To: Leo Sonnenberg Cc: GPV List Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Evening, use the relationship chart I sent you to establish your legal designation. On the mother/father query simply separate kinship into paternal/ maternal sides. You are both. On Oct 1, 2008, at 10:15 PM, Leo Sonnenberg wrote: > > I recently received a list of ancestors on my father's side back to > 1790 > from a cousin in Germany. I was surprised to see that my grandfather > on > my mother's side was also on the list. > My mother is a great granddaughter to the common ancestor and my > father > is a great great grandson to the common ancestor. I am both a great > great grandson through my mother and a great great great grandson > through my father. > > My questions are - A. what cousins are my parents to each other and > B. > what am I to my distant grandfather? How would I classify myself - a > two great grandson or a three great grandson? So who am I? > > Also, does this situation occur very often? > > Any definition of my relationship to my distant grandfather is welcome > (including any jokes). > > Leo Sonnenberg > . . . Otto " The Zen moment..." wk. of March 23, 2008- ________________________________ "Each of us. . . A bundle of possibilities." ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 20:52:38 -0700 From: Gary Warner Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships To: Leo Sonnenberg Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org Message-ID: <48E44586.9030601 at warnerengineering.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Leo, If you believe that Adam and Eve were real people, then it is apparent that our pedigree cannot keep increasing in the number of unrelated grandparents indefinitely as your count generations back in time. In order to get back to Adam and Eve, and also in order to reflect the fact that fewer and fewer people were alive every century that a clock is turned back, some of our ancestors NEED to be the same people- that is, our pedigree chart has to start collapsing by virtue of multiple lines becoming the repetetive. In order to answer your question about how your parents are related, there are two ways to do that: 1.) you either need to manually start at a common ancestor in each line and figure out how each generation is related; or 2.) it is easier if a computer program like Legacy figures it out for you, but then you need to enter the data into the program to do that (you really need to do that anyway if you are going to preserve the information you found). If there are multiple people that you have in common in the lines (not that uncommon), then you have multiple relationships to figure out. Your parents could easily be 5th or 6th or 7th cousins, or possibly all three. 1st generation- a single person is himself or herself 2nd generation- relationship is siblings 3rd generation- relationship is 1st cousins 4th generation- relationship is 2nd cousins If one of the generational lines gets out of step with another one in time, as happens when one line has children at age 20, and the other one has children at age 40 and then the children of one line marry the grandchildren of another line, then the relationship becomes once removed. For instance, my father had me when he was in his mid forties, and his siblings had their children when they were in there 20s. So I am 20 or more years younger than my first cousins, and my 1st cousin's children are the same age as I am- each of those children are therefore my 1st cousin once removed. Gary Warner Leo Sonnenberg wrote: > I recently received a list of ancestors on my father's side back to 1790 > from a cousin in Germany. I was surprised to see that my grandfather on > my mother's side was also on the list. > My mother is a great granddaughter to the common ancestor and my father > is a great great grandson to the common ancestor. I am both a great > great grandson through my mother and a great great great grandson > through my father. > > My questions are - A. what cousins are my parents to each other and B. > what am I to my distant grandfather? How would I classify myself - a > two great grandson or a three great grandson? So who am I? > > Also, does this situation occur very often? > > Any definition of my relationship to my distant grandfather is welcome > (including any jokes). > > Leo Sonnenberg > > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv > ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 22:06:07 -0600 From: Jerry Frank Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships To: Leo Sonnenberg , ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org Message-ID: <796o8r$1i9j0h at pd2mo1so-svcs.prod.shaw.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed If I charted it correctly - Your father and mother are 2nd cousins once removed. You are your father's 3rd cousin. You are your mother's 2nd cousin twice removed. You and your siblings are 3rd cousins once removed. I have no idea how common this situation is. My wife's parents (Volga German descendants) were fourth cousins. Complicate this even more so with her g.grandfather on her father's side marrying a 2nd cousin and the relationships get really messy. Jerry Frank - Calgary, Alberta FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca At 08:15 PM 01/10/2008, Leo Sonnenberg wrote: >I recently received a list of ancestors on my father's side back to 1790 >from a cousin in Germany. I was surprised to see that my grandfather on >my mother's side was also on the list. >My mother is a great granddaughter to the common ancestor and my father >is a great great grandson to the common ancestor. I am both a great >great grandson through my mother and a great great great grandson >through my father. > >My questions are - A. what cousins are my parents to each other and B. >what am I to my distant grandfather? How would I classify myself - a >two great grandson or a three great grandson? So who am I? > >Also, does this situation occur very often? > >Any definition of my relationship to my distant grandfather is welcome >(including any jokes). > >Leo Sonnenberg > ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 06:25:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Karl Krueger Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org, Leo Sonnenberg Message-ID: <708126.74564.qm at web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Leo, Others have already explained the relationships you were wondering about. Your other question about how often does this kind of thing happen was not answered though. The answer to that question is this happens very often among the German communities throughout this area. Think of? having a restricted population of hundreds to maybe a couple thousand people from which you can choose your spouse. In the first generation it is easy to find an unrelated person to marry. But with each subsequent generation it will be more difficulat to find someone completely unrelated to you. It will only take a few generations before you find the majority of the population interelated to each other. I have noticed this phenomenon studying EWZ records where my parents/grandparents came from. I found so many interrelationships betweens different branches of my distant relatives that my family was never aware before I started building this database. Most people I know now through SGGEE whose ancestors came from the Lublin area are either related to me (2nd-5th cousins) or are related to others of my relatives (1st or 2nd cousins). ? Secondly,?two other?drivers for marrying was who your family knew and economic pressures to retain ownership of farm land. These factors tended to?encourage marrying someone related to you. Cousins marrying each other was not uncommon. In rare instances marrying an uncle/aunt or even step daughter have been found. They were not aware of the benefit of genetic diversity or the dangers of avoiding it. In our society we have a better understanding of the genetic implications and thus we avoid marrying relatives. Karl --- On Wed, 10/1/08, Leo Sonnenberg wrote: From: Leo Sonnenberg Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 10:15 PM I recently received a list of ancestors on my father's side back to 1790 from a cousin in Germany. I was surprised to see that my grandfather on my mother's side was also on the list. My mother is a great granddaughter to the common ancestor and my father is a great great grandson to the common ancestor. I am both a great great grandson through my mother and a great great great grandson through my father. My questions are - A. what cousins are my parents to each other and B. what am I to my distant grandfather? How would I classify myself - a two great grandson or a three great grandson? So who am I? Also, does this situation occur very often? Any definition of my relationship to my distant grandfather is welcome (including any jokes). Leo Sonnenberg _______________________________________________ Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Ger-Poland-Volhynia mailing list, hosted by the: Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv.html End of Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 65, Issue 2 ************************************************** From sonnal at shaw.ca Thu Oct 2 20:24:26 2008 From: sonnal at shaw.ca (Leo Sonnenberg) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 20:24:26 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships In-Reply-To: <0K8300J2ZFL1NU11@l-daemon> References: <48E42EAB.7020906@shaw.ca> <0K8300J2ZFL1NU11@l-daemon> Message-ID: <48E5906A.9050708@shaw.ca> Thank you one and all for your responses to my query re family relationships. Genealogical relationships have been a mystery to me so the information is interesting and illuminating. However, as I was reading your comments I was reminded of a pop song recorded by Guy Lombardo in 1948, written by Dwight Latham and Moe Jaffe entitled "I'm My Own Grandpa". The song is based on the following: A Proof that a Man can be His Own Grandfather.---There was a widow and her daughter-in-law, a man and her daughter-in-law, and man and his son. The widow married the son, and the daughter the old gentleman. The widow was therefore mother to her husband's father, and consequently grandmother to her own husband. They had a son, to which she was a great-grandmother: now, as the son of a great-grandmother must be either a grandfather or great-uncle, this boy was one or the other. He was his own grandfather! This was the case with a boy at school at Norwich.---Hood's Magazine. You can Google the title and find several links that will play the song. Leo Sonnenberg From daveobee at shaw.ca Thu Oct 2 22:02:04 2008 From: daveobee at shaw.ca (Dave Obee) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 22:02:04 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Milwaukee 2009 Message-ID: Plans for the conference in Milwaukee are starting to come together. Some people on this list have indicated that they might be willing to give a presentation to the conference. Please let me know if the offers still stand, whether you have been able to confirm attendance, and so on. Anybody else interested in giving an hour-long talk? Topics of interest to those of us researching Germans in Poland, Poles in Poland, Germans and Poles in Ukraine, and so on? If so please let me know as soon as possible. We have about a dozen spots left to fill. Much of the conference will have two simultaneous tracks. All ideas welcome. Thanks Dave Obee From nancygertner at mac.com Fri Oct 3 03:54:19 2008 From: nancygertner at mac.com (Nancy Gertner) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 05:54:19 -0500 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships - Familie SONNENBURG In-Reply-To: <48E5906A.9050708@shaw.ca> References: <48E42EAB.7020906@shaw.ca> <0K8300J2ZFL1NU11@l-daemon> <48E5906A.9050708@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <39C30D92-CDB9-4FD1-B1BA-FCE28B19166A@mac.com> My cousin sang this song at a family reunion, and I also thought of it when you posted this query. My GEDCOM program, Family Tree Maker, does charts that show relationships. My family tree includes a female SONNENBURG ancestor born about 200 years ago, so I've researched this name, and collected' all the Sonnenburgs / Sonnenbergs I found when looking at church records. During a trip to Poland in 2005, I found a headstone Zonnenburg that showed how the name was 'Polishized' when the area was 'resettled' after WWII. My Prussian ancestors lived in Posen Province (Poznan) and the Lutheran parish records I looked at were Schokken and Revier. Nancy in Minnesota On Oct 2, 2008, at 10:24 PM, Leo Sonnenberg wrote: > > Thank you one and all for your responses to my query re family > relationships. Genealogical relationships have been a mystery to me so > the information is interesting and illuminating. However, as I was > reading your comments I was reminded of a pop song recorded by Guy > Lombardo in 1948, written by Dwight Latham and Moe Jaffe entitled "I'm > My Own Grandpa". The song is based on the following: > A Proof that a Man can be His Own Grandfather.---There was a widow and > her daughter-in-law, a man and her daughter-in-law, and man and his > son. > The widow married the son, and the daughter the old gentleman. The > widow > was therefore mother to her husband's father, and consequently > grandmother to her own husband. They had a son, to which she was a > great-grandmother: now, as the son of a great-grandmother must be > either > a grandfather or great-uncle, this boy was one or the other. He was > his > own grandfather! This was the case with a boy at school at > Norwich.---Hood's Magazine. > > You can Google the title and find several links that will play the > song. > > Leo Sonnenberg > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv From ehaas3 at cox.net Fri Oct 3 07:30:51 2008 From: ehaas3 at cox.net (Eleanor) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 07:30:51 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships - FamilieSONNENBURG In-Reply-To: <39C30D92-CDB9-4FD1-B1BA-FCE28B19166A@mac.com> References: <48E42EAB.7020906@shaw.ca> <0K8300J2ZFL1NU11@l-daemon><48E5906A.9050708@shaw.ca> <39C30D92-CDB9-4FD1-B1BA-FCE28B19166A@mac.com> Message-ID: My great grandmother was Louisa Sonnenberg. She was married to Ferdinand Meier. They settled in the Perham, Minnesota area. Ferdinand, Sr came prior to Louise and the children. Louise came over on the Augusta Victoria on October 3, 1896. Their port of departure was Hamburg Germany. On the passenger record of Ferdinand, Jr his ethnicity was listed as Russia. Louise' birth age was listed as 35. My grandfather, Fritze (on passenger list) Frederick Meyer was 10. He listed his last place of residence on his declaration of Intent as Weisendorf, Russia. In Polish, Louise is Ludrika, I believe. Nancy, please get back to me on a one on one regarding the Sonnenbergs. Thanks, Eleanor Haas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nancy Gertner" To: "Leo Sonnenberg" Cc: Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 3:54 AM Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships - FamilieSONNENBURG > My cousin sang this song at a family reunion, and I also thought of > it when you posted this query. > > My GEDCOM program, Family Tree Maker, does charts that show > relationships. > > My family tree includes a female SONNENBURG ancestor born about 200 > years ago, so I've researched this name, and collected' all the > Sonnenburgs / Sonnenbergs I found when looking at church records. > During a trip to Poland in 2005, I found a headstone Zonnenburg that > showed how the name was 'Polishized' when the area was 'resettled' > after WWII. > > My Prussian ancestors lived in Posen Province (Poznan) and the > Lutheran parish records I looked at were Schokken and Revier. > > Nancy in Minnesota > > > On Oct 2, 2008, at 10:24 PM, Leo Sonnenberg wrote: > >> >> Thank you one and all for your responses to my query re family >> relationships. Genealogical relationships have been a mystery to me so >> the information is interesting and illuminating. However, as I was >> reading your comments I was reminded of a pop song recorded by Guy >> Lombardo in 1948, written by Dwight Latham and Moe Jaffe entitled "I'm >> My Own Grandpa". The song is based on the following: >> A Proof that a Man can be His Own Grandfather.---There was a widow and >> her daughter-in-law, a man and her daughter-in-law, and man and his >> son. >> The widow married the son, and the daughter the old gentleman. The >> widow >> was therefore mother to her husband's father, and consequently >> grandmother to her own husband. They had a son, to which she was a >> great-grandmother: now, as the son of a great-grandmother must be >> either >> a grandfather or great-uncle, this boy was one or the other. He was >> his >> own grandfather! This was the case with a boy at school at >> Norwich.---Hood's Magazine. >> >> You can Google the title and find several links that will play the >> song. >> >> Leo Sonnenberg >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by >> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org >> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv > > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.5/1705 - Release Date: 10/3/2008 8:18 AM From otto at schienke.com Fri Oct 3 08:23:16 2008 From: otto at schienke.com (Otto) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 11:23:16 -0400 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships - FamilieSONNENBURG In-Reply-To: References: <48E42EAB.7020906@shaw.ca> <0K8300J2ZFL1NU11@l-daemon><48E5906A.9050708@shaw.ca> <39C30D92-CDB9-4FD1-B1BA-FCE28B19166A@mac.com> Message-ID: <1E1AF9BF-A9D5-43C3-AE13-5B79FA20A2D2@schienke.com> Good morning Eleanor, This will help: All of the following are the same name masculine/feminine (note the use of gender suffixes in differing languages- a, us, e, as,) Ancient German "Hlod'wig" (fame+warrior) Ludwig Ludwiga German Ludovikus Ludovica Latin Louis Louise English Ludwik Ludwika Polish Liudvikas Liudvika Lithuanian Also used in Polish as a given name is a variation, "Luiza" = 'Louisa'. On Oct 3, 2008, at 10:30 AM, Eleanor wrote: > In Polish, Louise is Ludrika, > I believe. . . . Otto " The Zen moment..." wk. of March 23, 2008- ________________________________ "Each of us. . . A bundle of possibilities." From FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca Fri Oct 3 08:20:36 2008 From: FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 09:20:36 -0600 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships - FamilieSONNENBURG In-Reply-To: References: <48E42EAB.7020906@shaw.ca> <0K8300J2ZFL1NU11@l-daemon> <48E5906A.9050708@shaw.ca> <39C30D92-CDB9-4FD1-B1BA-FCE28B19166A@mac.com> Message-ID: Eleanor, Weisendorf was in the region east of the Black Sea known as Georgia.? There was also a Weizendorf in the Don region. I have never heard of the name Ludricka.? Ludwicka of course is the female version of Ludwig. For Louise, Poles would typically use Luisa / Luiz or similar. Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: Eleanor Date: Friday, October 3, 2008 8:36 am Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships - FamilieSONNENBURG To: Nancy Gertner , Leo Sonnenberg Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org > My great grandmother was Louisa Sonnenberg.? She was > married to Ferdinand > Meier.? They settled in the Perham, Minnesota area.? > Ferdinand, Sr came > prior to Louise and the children.? Louise came over on the > Augusta Victoria > on October 3, 1896.? Their port of departure was Hamburg > Germany.? On the > passenger record of Ferdinand, Jr his ethnicity was listed as > Russia. > Louise' birth age was listed as 35.? My grandfather, Fritze > (on passenger > list) Frederick Meyer was 10.? He listed his last place of > residence on his > declaration of Intent as Weisendorf, Russia.? In Polish, > Louise is Ludrika, > I believe. > > Nancy, please get back to me on a one on one regarding the > Sonnenbergs. > Thanks, > Eleanor Haas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nancy Gertner" > To: "Leo Sonnenberg" > Cc: > Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 3:54 AM > Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships - > FamilieSONNENBURG > > > > My cousin sang this song at a family reunion, and I also > thought of > > it when you posted this query. > > > > My GEDCOM program, Family Tree Maker, does charts that show > > relationships. > > > > My family tree includes a female SONNENBURG ancestor born > about 200 > > years ago, so I've researched this name, and collected' all the > > Sonnenburgs / Sonnenbergs I found when looking at church records. > > During a trip to Poland in 2005, I found a headstone > Zonnenburg that > > showed how the name was 'Polishized' when the area was 'resettled' > > after WWII. > > > > My Prussian ancestors lived in Posen Province (Poznan) and the > > Lutheran parish records I looked at were Schokken and Revier. > > > > Nancy in Minnesota > > > > > > On Oct 2, 2008, at 10:24 PM, Leo Sonnenberg wrote: > > > >> > >> Thank you one and all for your responses to my query re family > >> relationships. Genealogical relationships have been a mystery > to me so > >> the information is interesting and illuminating. However, as > I was > >> reading your comments I was reminded of a pop song recorded > by Guy > >> Lombardo in 1948, written by Dwight Latham and Moe Jaffe > entitled "I'm > >> My Own Grandpa". The song is based on the following: > >> A Proof that a Man can be His Own Grandfather.---There was a > widow and > >> her daughter-in-law, a man and her daughter-in-law, and man > and his > >> son. > >> The widow married the son, and the daughter the old > gentleman. The > >> widow > >> was therefore mother to her husband's father, and consequently > >> grandmother to her own husband. They had a son, to which she > was a > >> great-grandmother: now, as the son of a great-grandmother > must be > >> either > >> a grandfather or great-uncle, this boy was one or the other. > He was > >> his > >> own grandfather! This was the case with a boy at school at > >> Norwich.---Hood's Magazine. > >> > >> You can Google the title and find several links that will > play the > >> song. > >> > >> Leo Sonnenberg > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by > >> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > >> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by > > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > --------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.5/1705 - Release Date: > 10/3/2008 > 8:18 AM > > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv > From robertnorenberg at yahoo.ca Fri Oct 3 10:27:45 2008 From: robertnorenberg at yahoo.ca (Robert Norenberg) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 10:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of Relativity" Message-ID: <738239.91755.qm@web54503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I have been extracting one small village from 1550-1925 in Wuerttemberg. What surprised me the most was the fact that I was related to almost 95 percent of the entire population down through the ages. I use Legacy so it lets me know if and how I am related to any one person in my file. This was only one ggg grandmother's family and I calculated I had about 15,000 blood relatives (albeit many distant cousins). I can only imagine how many "relatives" we all would have if we were able to track every branch. In theory I always suspected we were all connected but this extraction project proved it for me. Cheers Robert __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. From robertnorenberg at yahoo.ca Sun Oct 5 13:45:11 2008 From: robertnorenberg at yahoo.ca (Robert Norenberg) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 13:45:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of Relativity" In-Reply-To: <411417.86137.qm@web57416.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <928792.17674.qm@web54504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Cathy?? There are two versions of Legacy (Standard and Deluxe). The Standard version is free and is excellent. A few years ago it was recommended to me by someone at SGGEE because when I sent in my family file using Family Tree Maker it was scrambled after importing it from GEDCOM.This cannot happen with Legacy.?I am completely impressed by Legacy now and would never go back to FTM.?It has a function that allows you to select anyone from the file and then Legacy will calculate how that certain person is related to everyone else in the file. The relationship is then inserted above all the names of everyone in the file with a blood connection and in Version?7 (the latest update) it also tracks non- related relationships as well. I had to have the Deluxe version?because it has a few extra "bells and whistles". I strongly recommend trying it (it's free so nothing to loose). Also, the search functions are outstanding.?? Cheers Robert??? --- On Fri, 10/3/08, Cathy Walters wrote: From: Cathy Walters Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of Relativity" To: robertnorenberg at yahoo.ca Received: Friday, October 3, 2008, 4:03 PM Robert Hi, Can you explain to me what is Legacy? Is it free? Is it good-easy and allows all kinds of info on each family? I hear it mention before,but don't think I heard that it tells when you find a name that it tells you are related.That would be special ! Thanks Cathy Robert Norenberg wrote: I have been extracting one small village from 1550-1925 in Wuerttemberg. What surprised me the most was the fact that I was related to almost 95 percent of the entire population down through the ages. I use Legacy so it lets me know if and how I am related to any one person in my file. This was only one ggg grandmother's family and I calculated I had about 15,000 blood relatives (albeit many distant cousins). I can only imagine how many "relatives" we all would have if we were able to track every branch. In theory I always suspected we were all connected but this extraction project proved it for me. Cheers Robert __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. _______________________________________________ Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv ? ALWAYS A ROSE __________________________________________________________________ Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/ From robertnorenberg at yahoo.ca Sun Oct 5 13:47:12 2008 From: robertnorenberg at yahoo.ca (Robert Norenberg) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 13:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of Relativity" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <715229.43646.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Marcia I have not come across this name at all. I would try familysearch.org to see if there is an area where this name may be prevalent. Cheers Robert --- On Fri, 10/3/08, Marcia Oliveira wrote: > From: Marcia Oliveira > Subject: RE: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of Relativity" > To: robertnorenberg at yahoo.ca > Received: Friday, October 3, 2008, 3:42 PM > Hi Robert, > > I'm looking for Radis or Radisch surname. Have you seen > any name like August Radis in your researches in > Wuerttemberg? Any help will be appreciate. > Marcia RadisPhoenix> Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 10:27:45 > -0700> From: robertnorenberg at yahoo.ca> To: > ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org> Subject: > [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of > Relativity"> > I have been extracting one small > village from 1550-1925 in Wuerttemberg. What surprised me > the most was the fact that I was related to almost 95 > percent of the entire population down through the ages. I > use Legacy so it lets me know if and how I am related to any > one person in my file. This was only one ggg > grandmother's family and I calculated I had about 15,000 > blood relatives (albeit many distant cousins). I can only > imagine how many "relatives" we all would have if > we were able to track every branch. In theory I always > suspected we were all connected but this extraction project > proved it for me. Cheers Robert > > > > __________________________________________________________________> > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and > bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at> > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.> > > _______________________________________________> > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by> Society for > German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org> > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ From roseingram at shaw.ca Sun Oct 5 14:16:31 2008 From: roseingram at shaw.ca (Rose Ingram) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 14:16:31 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Legacy Genealogy program References: <928792.17674.qm@web54504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001d01c9272f$a3ba6de0$6601a8c0@duocore> There has been some discussion about the Legacy Genealogy program. I too switched several years ago to this program from the PAF program. You can read up on it and download the free standard version at http://www.legacyfamilytree.com/ Also note there is free training video you can view for beginners to Legacy. Rose Ingram From Spaghettitree at aol.com Sun Oct 5 14:16:13 2008 From: Spaghettitree at aol.com (Spaghettitree@aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 17:16:13 EDT Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re surname Radisch Message-ID: Hi - According to Bahlow's Dictionary of German Names, consider this: Radighk. Radicke is East German-Slavic short form of Radoslaw (Ratzlaff) like Budig for Budislaw. Likewise Ranusch, R?disch [Raedisch], R?dsch [Raedsch] (Lithuanian Radischat). Also see place name R?disch in Bohemia, Moravia (older: Gradisch Hradisch), hence Hensel Redischer, Br?nn 1343. As with most of our names, there is no single "correct" spelling, since there were no "rules" (once in the 18th century, I believe, which didn't work) and again late in the 19th century, early 20th which finally began to take hold (but by no means for everyone) around 1910-1920. Listen to the sounds, rather than the spellings and follow the evolutions. Maureen Schoenky ************** New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out! (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000001) From GHBoehm at ish.de Sun Oct 5 14:41:03 2008 From: GHBoehm at ish.de (=?UTF-8?B?R8O8bnRoZXIgQsO2aG0=?=) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 23:41:03 +0200 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of Relativity" In-Reply-To: <715229.43646.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <715229.43646.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48E9346F.2010502@ish.de> Marcia Oliveira schrieb: > I'm looking for Radis or Radisch surname. Have you seen > any name like August Radis in your researches in > Wuerttemberg? Any help will be appreciate. > Hello Marcia, RADISCH isn't a German but a Czech or Slovenian name. It originates in one of the various eponymous towns and villages in Bohemia, Styria or Slovenia. In Bohemia: Radisch = Hradi?t? Langenradisch = Dlouh? Hradi?t? Scheibenradisch = Okrouhl? Hradi?t? Ungarisch Hradisch = Uhersk? Hradi?t? Hradi?t? = Burgst?tte = ruinous castle hrad = Burg, Pfalz = castle, palace Even the name of the Northern Italian town of Gradisca, Friuli [old German: Gradis am Sontig, 10 km from the Slovenian border] comes from the same origin. G?nther from Hilden, Germany From gary at warnerengineering.com Sun Oct 5 14:57:57 2008 From: gary at warnerengineering.com (Gary Warner) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 14:57:57 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of Relativity" In-Reply-To: <715229.43646.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <715229.43646.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48E93865.7030704@warnerengineering.com> Marcia, We have data on 86 different Radis names in our Master Pedigree Database, but no Radisch names. If you can tell us a bit more of the names and dates and places associated with your Radis family, perhaps we can help you. Gary Warner SGGEE Robert Norenberg wrote: > Hi Marcia I have not come across this name at all. I would try familysearch.org to see if there is an area where this name may be prevalent. Cheers Robert > > --- On Fri, 10/3/08, Marcia Oliveira wrote: > > >> From: Marcia Oliveira >> Subject: RE: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of Relativity" >> To: robertnorenberg at yahoo.ca >> Received: Friday, October 3, 2008, 3:42 PM >> Hi Robert, >> >> I'm looking for Radis or Radisch surname. Have you seen >> any name like August Radis in your researches in >> Wuerttemberg? Any help will be appreciate. >> Marcia RadisPhoenix> Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 10:27:45 >> -0700> From: robertnorenberg at yahoo.ca> To: >> ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org> Subject: >> [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of >> Relativity"> > I have been extracting one small >> village from 1550-1925 in Wuerttemberg. What surprised me >> the most was the fact that I was related to almost 95 >> percent of the entire population down through the ages. I >> use Legacy so it lets me know if and how I am related to any >> one person in my file. This was only one ggg >> grandmother's family and I calculated I had about 15,000 >> blood relatives (albeit many distant cousins). I can only >> imagine how many "relatives" we all would have if >> we were able to track every branch. In theory I always >> suspected we were all connected but this extraction project >> proved it for me. Cheers Robert > > > >> __________________________________________________________________> >> Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and >> bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at> >> http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.> > >> _______________________________________________> >> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by> Society for >> German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org> >> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv >> > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv > From GHBoehm at ish.de Sun Oct 5 15:18:12 2008 From: GHBoehm at ish.de (=?UTF-8?B?R8O8bnRoZXIgQsO2aG0=?=) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 00:18:12 +0200 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of Relativity" In-Reply-To: <48E9346F.2010502@ish.de> References: <715229.43646.qm@web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <48E9346F.2010502@ish.de> Message-ID: <48E93D24.5080102@ish.de> G?nther B?hm schrieb: > RADISCH isn't a German but a Czech or Slovenian name. It originates in > one of the various eponymous towns and villages in Bohemia, Styria or > Slovenia. > > In Bohemia: > > Radisch = Hradi?t? > Langenradisch = Dlouh? Hradi?t? > Scheibenradisch = Okrouhl? Hradi?t? > Ungarisch Hradisch = Uhersk? Hradi?t? > > Hradi?t? = Burgst?tte = ruinous castle > hrad = Burg, Pfalz = castle, palace > Marcia, forgot something: The Slavian name origin of the location doesn't mean that its inhabitant to whom the name was imposed was likewise of Slavian origin. To the contrary the German abrasion and spelling ['?t?' -> 'sch' which is German, not Slavian] indicats that he was German. G?nther From Earl.Schultz at telusplanet.net Sun Oct 5 21:48:15 2008 From: Earl.Schultz at telusplanet.net (Earl.Schultz) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 23:48:15 -0500 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships - Familie SONNENBURG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <86990C11204D4C23B44899B562F35465@Desktop> Sonnenburg is also a common name (about 21) in the Rypin-Michalki Parish records. Let me know if this interests you. Earl ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 05:54:19 -0500 From: Nancy Gertner Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships - Familie SONNENBURG To: Leo Sonnenberg Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org Message-ID: <39C30D92-CDB9-4FD1-B1BA-FCE28B19166A at mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed My cousin sang this song at a family reunion, and I also thought of it when you posted this query. My GEDCOM program, Family Tree Maker, does charts that show relationships. My family tree includes a female SONNENBURG ancestor born about 200 years ago, so I've researched this name, and collected' all the Sonnenburgs / Sonnenbergs I found when looking at church records. During a trip to Poland in 2005, I found a headstone Zonnenburg that showed how the name was 'Polishized' when the area was 'resettled' after WWII. My Prussian ancestors lived in Posen Province (Poznan) and the Lutheran parish records I looked at were Schokken and Revier. Nancy in Minnesota On Oct 2, 2008, at 10:24 PM, Leo Sonnenberg wrote: > > Thank you one and all for your responses to my query re family > relationships. Genealogical relationships have been a mystery to me so > the information is interesting and illuminating. However, as I was > reading your comments I was reminded of a pop song recorded by Guy > Lombardo in 1948, written by Dwight Latham and Moe Jaffe entitled "I'm > My Own Grandpa". The song is based on the following: > A Proof that a Man can be His Own Grandfather.---There was a widow and > her daughter-in-law, a man and her daughter-in-law, and man and his > son. > The widow married the son, and the daughter the old gentleman. The > widow was therefore mother to her husband's father, and consequently > grandmother to her own husband. They had a son, to which she was a > great-grandmother: now, as the son of a great-grandmother must be > either a grandfather or great-uncle, this boy was one or the other. He > was his own grandfather! This was the case with a boy at school at > Norwich.---Hood's Magazine. > > You can Google the title and find several links that will play the > song. > > Leo Sonnenberg > > > From Earl.Schultz at telusplanet.net Sun Oct 5 22:17:45 2008 From: Earl.Schultz at telusplanet.net (Earl.Schultz) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 00:17:45 -0500 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5E2BEDC8276B4229979D4D2908B00AA4@Desktop> Welcome to the club, Leo. I am in exactly the same situation as you are. My mother is my 3rd cousin and my mother and father are 2nd cousins once removed. As everyone has mentioned, it is extremely common as people did not stray far from their villages. I also suspect that my maternal grandfather and grandmother were cousins but not sure how close (likely 1st or 2nd). In Poland this summer, I was very surprised to learn that the descendents of the marriage that linked my mother's and father's lines 150 years ago are still fishing together, probably not even aware of the connection. Contrary to popular belief, 2nd cousins, etc. marrying was likely a major benefit to us. I read a New Scientist article about 30 years ago that said that close marriages like that can emphasize the positive genes in the same way that we know it can emphasize the negative ones. The article postulated that our resistance to disease was improved by 2nd cousins marrying and probably improved our ability to survive the many plagues, etc. that existed in those days. I wish now that I had kept a copy of the article but I remember it very clearly. It is interesting how my parents met and married. They met in Canada, far from their home in Poland. When my father left Poland at age 20 he was told to look up my mother's family and they would look after him. It was logical for his mother to give the name of a child of her first cousin. He boarded with them and took a liking to the daughter, not knowing that they were related. Years later they had heard rumours that they were related but it was not until they were married almost 60 years that I was able to confirm the relationship. My father was very interested; my mother, embarrassed. Earl ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 19:15:07 -0700 From: Leo Sonnenberg Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org Message-ID: <48E42EAB.7020906 at shaw.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I recently received a list of ancestors on my father's side back to 1790 from a cousin in Germany. I was surprised to see that my grandfather on my mother's side was also on the list. My mother is a great granddaughter to the common ancestor and my father is a great great grandson to the common ancestor. I am both a great great grandson through my mother and a great great great grandson through my father. My questions are - A. what cousins are my parents to each other and B. what am I to my distant grandfather? How would I classify myself - a two great grandson or a three great grandson? So who am I? Also, does this situation occur very often? Any definition of my relationship to my distant grandfather is welcome (including any jokes). Leo Sonnenberg ------------------------------ From akdl25466_2 at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Oct 6 00:08:21 2008 From: akdl25466_2 at blueyonder.co.uk (Anne Keen) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 08:08:21 +0100 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 65, Issue 5 References: Message-ID: <000301c92782$52fa0ac0$68542552@your3hcef8q6j0> The relativity question puzzles me too! I wonder if the LDS have it right, and we are all descended from Adam and Eve......................my husband asked me very sarcastically the other evening if I had found Adam yet, and within a few minutes I had found an ancestor of his called Adam. Spooky. He doesn't share my enthusiasm for genealogy ( my husband, not Adam) but has been a treasure-trove of information about the area he was born and brought up in, South Yorkshire, its history, its industrial heritage and its somewhat soft borders with Derbyshire.He was a great walker as a lad, and unwittingly has walked to and from many of the villages where his ancestors lived and worked and died. As for genealogy programmes, I am using a free version of My Heritage's Family Tree Builder. Once I'd worked out how to get rid of the dreadful Victorian silhouettes, and change the baby-blue and knicker-pink colours allocated for male and female, it isn't too bad. I might buy the full version. It also gives you the relationship between people - at the moment I have my husband set as the 'home' person so I can irritate him by telling him I've found another gggg auntie by marriage three times removed. I do quite like it.The only irritation it has is that it keeps asking if I wish to publish the tree, and I don't - it gets on my nerves a bit. It will provide a written report on any person you choose to set. I also got quite a clear and attractive chart of my father-in-law's direct ancestors: he died in 1999 but had never known much of his family. My mother-in-law had been intrigued for years as to who her husband's father's people had been: well, now she knows some of them. Regards to everyone Anne ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 6:47 AM Subject: Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 65, Issue 5 > Send Ger-Poland-Volhynia mailing list submissions to > ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://eclipse.sggee.org/mailman/listinfo/ger-poland-volhynia > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > ger-poland-volhynia-request at eclipse.sggee.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > ger-poland-volhynia-owner at eclipse.sggee.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Ger-Poland-Volhynia digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Re "Theory of Relativity" (Robert Norenberg) > 2. Re: Re "Theory of Relativity" (Robert Norenberg) > 3. Legacy Genealogy program (Rose Ingram) > 4. Re: Re surname Radisch (Spaghettitree at aol.com) > 5. Re: Re "Theory of Relativity" (G?nther B?hm) > 6. Re: Re "Theory of Relativity" (Gary Warner) > 7. Re: Re "Theory of Relativity" (G?nther B?hm) > 8. Re: Figuring Relationships - Familie SONNENBURG (Earl.Schultz) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 13:45:11 -0700 (PDT) > From: Robert Norenberg > Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of Relativity" > To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org > Message-ID: <928792.17674.qm at web54504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Hi Cathy?? There are two versions of Legacy (Standard and Deluxe). The > Standard version is free and is excellent. A few years ago it was > recommended to me by someone at SGGEE because when I sent in my family > file using Family Tree Maker it was scrambled after importing it from > GEDCOM.This cannot happen with Legacy.?I am completely impressed by Legacy > now and would never go back to FTM.?It has a function that allows you to > select anyone from the file and then Legacy will calculate how that > certain person is related to everyone else in the file. The relationship > is then inserted above all the names of everyone in the file with a blood > connection and in Version?7 (the latest update) it also tracks non- > related relationships as well. I had to have the Deluxe version?because it > has a few extra "bells and whistles". I strongly recommend trying it (it's > free so nothing to loose). Also, the search functions are outstanding.?? > Cheers Robert??? > --- On Fri, 10/3/08, Cathy Walters wrote: > > From: Cathy Walters > Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of Relativity" > To: robertnorenberg at yahoo.ca > Received: Friday, October 3, 2008, 4:03 PM > > > Robert Hi, Can you explain to me what is Legacy? Is it free? Is it > good-easy and allows all kinds of info on each family? I hear it mention > before,but don't think I heard that it tells when you find a name that it > tells you are related.That would be special ! Thanks Cathy > > Robert Norenberg wrote: > I have been extracting one small village from 1550-1925 in Wuerttemberg. > What surprised me the most was the fact that I was related to almost 95 > percent of the entire population down through the ages. I use Legacy so it > lets me know if and how I am related to any one person in my file. This > was only one ggg grandmother's family and I calculated I had about 15,000 > blood relatives (albeit many distant cousins). I can only imagine how many > "relatives" we all would have if we were able to track every branch. In > theory I always suspected we were all connected but this extraction > project proved it for me. Cheers Robert > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your > favourite sites. Download it now at > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv > > > > > ? ALWAYS A ROSE > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! > Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/ > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 13:47:12 -0700 (PDT) > From: Robert Norenberg > Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of Relativity" > To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org > Message-ID: <715229.43646.qm at web54506.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > Hi Marcia I have not come across this name at all. I would try > familysearch.org to see if there is an area where this name may be > prevalent. Cheers Robert > > --- On Fri, 10/3/08, Marcia Oliveira wrote: > >> From: Marcia Oliveira >> Subject: RE: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of Relativity" >> To: robertnorenberg at yahoo.ca >> Received: Friday, October 3, 2008, 3:42 PM >> Hi Robert, >> >> I'm looking for Radis or Radisch surname. Have you seen >> any name like August Radis in your researches in >> Wuerttemberg? Any help will be appreciate. >> Marcia RadisPhoenix> Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 10:27:45 >> -0700> From: robertnorenberg at yahoo.ca> To: >> ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org> Subject: >> [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of >> Relativity"> > I have been extracting one small >> village from 1550-1925 in Wuerttemberg. What surprised me >> the most was the fact that I was related to almost 95 >> percent of the entire population down through the ages. I >> use Legacy so it lets me know if and how I am related to any >> one person in my file. This was only one ggg >> grandmother's family and I calculated I had about 15,000 >> blood relatives (albeit many distant cousins). I can only >> imagine how many "relatives" we all would have if >> we were able to track every branch. In theory I always >> suspected we were all connected but this extraction project >> proved it for me. Cheers Robert > > > >> __________________________________________________________________> >> Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and >> bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at> >> http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.> > >> _______________________________________________> >> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by> Society for >> German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org> >> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 14:16:31 -0700 > From: "Rose Ingram" > Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Legacy Genealogy program > To: > Message-ID: <001d01c9272f$a3ba6de0$6601a8c0 at duocore> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > There has been some discussion about the Legacy Genealogy program. I too > switched several years ago to this program from the PAF program. > > You can read up on it and download the free standard version at > http://www.legacyfamilytree.com/ > > Also note there is free training video you can view for beginners to > Legacy. > > Rose Ingram > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 17:16:13 EDT > From: Spaghettitree at aol.com > Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re surname Radisch > To: robertnorenberg at yahoo.ca, ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > > Hi - According to Bahlow's Dictionary of German Names, consider this: > > Radighk. Radicke is East German-Slavic short form of Radoslaw (Ratzlaff) > like Budig for Budislaw. Likewise Ranusch, R?disch [Raedisch], R?dsch > [Raedsch] > (Lithuanian Radischat). Also see place name R?disch in Bohemia, Moravia > (older: Gradisch Hradisch), hence Hensel Redischer, Br?nn 1343. > > As with most of our names, there is no single "correct" spelling, since > there > were no "rules" (once in the 18th century, I believe, which didn't work) > and > again late in the 19th century, early 20th which finally began to take > hold > (but by no means for everyone) around 1910-1920. Listen to the sounds, > rather > than the spellings and follow the evolutions. > > Maureen Schoenky > > > ************** > New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at > your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out! > > (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000001) > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 23:41:03 +0200 > From: G?nther B?hm > Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of Relativity" > Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org > Message-ID: <48E9346F.2010502 at ish.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > Marcia Oliveira schrieb: > >> I'm looking for Radis or Radisch surname. Have you seen >> any name like August Radis in your researches in >> Wuerttemberg? Any help will be appreciate. >> > Hello Marcia, > RADISCH isn't a German but a Czech or Slovenian name. It originates in > one of the various eponymous towns and villages in Bohemia, Styria or > Slovenia. > > In Bohemia: > > Radisch = Hradi?t? > Langenradisch = Dlouh? Hradi?t? > Scheibenradisch = Okrouhl? Hradi?t? > Ungarisch Hradisch = Uhersk? Hradi?t? > > Hradi?t? = Burgst?tte = ruinous castle > hrad = Burg, Pfalz = castle, palace > > Even the name of the Northern Italian town of Gradisca, Friuli [old > German: Gradis am Sontig, 10 km from the Slovenian border] comes from > the same origin. > > G?nther > from Hilden, Germany > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 14:57:57 -0700 > From: Gary Warner > Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of Relativity" > To: Marcia Oliveira > Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org > Message-ID: <48E93865.7030704 at warnerengineering.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Marcia, > > We have data on 86 different Radis names in our Master Pedigree > Database, but no Radisch names. If you can tell us a bit more of the > names and dates and places associated with your Radis family, perhaps we > can help you. > > Gary Warner > SGGEE > > Robert Norenberg wrote: >> Hi Marcia I have not come across this name at all. I would try >> familysearch.org to see if there is an area where this name may be >> prevalent. Cheers Robert >> >> --- On Fri, 10/3/08, Marcia Oliveira wrote: >> >> >>> From: Marcia Oliveira >>> Subject: RE: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of Relativity" >>> To: robertnorenberg at yahoo.ca >>> Received: Friday, October 3, 2008, 3:42 PM >>> Hi Robert, >>> >>> I'm looking for Radis or Radisch surname. Have you seen >>> any name like August Radis in your researches in >>> Wuerttemberg? Any help will be appreciate. >>> Marcia RadisPhoenix> Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 10:27:45 >>> -0700> From: robertnorenberg at yahoo.ca> To: >>> ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org> Subject: >>> [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of >>> Relativity"> > I have been extracting one small >>> village from 1550-1925 in Wuerttemberg. What surprised me >>> the most was the fact that I was related to almost 95 >>> percent of the entire population down through the ages. I >>> use Legacy so it lets me know if and how I am related to any >>> one person in my file. This was only one ggg >>> grandmother's family and I calculated I had about 15,000 >>> blood relatives (albeit many distant cousins). I can only >>> imagine how many "relatives" we all would have if >>> we were able to track every branch. In theory I always >>> suspected we were all connected but this extraction project >>> proved it for me. Cheers Robert > > > >>> __________________________________________________________________> >>> Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and >>> bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at> >>> http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.> > >>> _______________________________________________> >>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by> Society for >>> German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org> >>> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv >>> >> >> >> __________________________________________________________________ >> Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! >> >> http://www.flickr.com/gift/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by >> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org >> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 00:18:12 +0200 > From: G?nther B?hm > Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of Relativity" > To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org > Message-ID: <48E93D24.5080102 at ish.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > G?nther B?hm schrieb: >> RADISCH isn't a German but a Czech or Slovenian name. It originates in >> one of the various eponymous towns and villages in Bohemia, Styria or >> Slovenia. >> >> In Bohemia: >> >> Radisch = Hradi?t? >> Langenradisch = Dlouh? Hradi?t? >> Scheibenradisch = Okrouhl? Hradi?t? >> Ungarisch Hradisch = Uhersk? Hradi?t? >> >> Hradi?t? = Burgst?tte = ruinous castle >> hrad = Burg, Pfalz = castle, palace >> > Marcia, > forgot something: > The Slavian name origin of the location doesn't mean that its inhabitant > to whom the name was imposed was likewise of Slavian origin. To the > contrary the German abrasion and spelling ['?t?' -> 'sch' which is > German, not Slavian] indicats that he was German. > > G?nther > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 23:48:15 -0500 > From: "Earl.Schultz" > Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships - Familie > SONNENBURG > To: > Message-ID: <86990C11204D4C23B44899B562F35465 at Desktop> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > Sonnenburg is also a common name (about 21) in the Rypin-Michalki Parish > records. Let me know if this interests you. > > Earl > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 05:54:19 -0500 > From: Nancy Gertner > Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships - Familie > SONNENBURG > To: Leo Sonnenberg > Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org > Message-ID: <39C30D92-CDB9-4FD1-B1BA-FCE28B19166A at mac.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > My cousin sang this song at a family reunion, and I also thought of it > when > you posted this query. > > My GEDCOM program, Family Tree Maker, does charts that show relationships. > > My family tree includes a female SONNENBURG ancestor born about 200 years > ago, so I've researched this name, and collected' all the > Sonnenburgs / Sonnenbergs I found when looking at church records. > During a trip to Poland in 2005, I found a headstone Zonnenburg that > showed > how the name was 'Polishized' when the area was 'resettled' > after WWII. > > My Prussian ancestors lived in Posen Province (Poznan) and the Lutheran > parish records I looked at were Schokken and Revier. > > Nancy in Minnesota > > > On Oct 2, 2008, at 10:24 PM, Leo Sonnenberg wrote: > >> >> Thank you one and all for your responses to my query re family >> relationships. Genealogical relationships have been a mystery to me so >> the information is interesting and illuminating. However, as I was >> reading your comments I was reminded of a pop song recorded by Guy >> Lombardo in 1948, written by Dwight Latham and Moe Jaffe entitled "I'm >> My Own Grandpa". The song is based on the following: >> A Proof that a Man can be His Own Grandfather.---There was a widow and >> her daughter-in-law, a man and her daughter-in-law, and man and his >> son. >> The widow married the son, and the daughter the old gentleman. The >> widow was therefore mother to her husband's father, and consequently >> grandmother to her own husband. They had a son, to which she was a >> great-grandmother: now, as the son of a great-grandmother must be >> either a grandfather or great-uncle, this boy was one or the other. He >> was his own grandfather! This was the case with a boy at school at >> Norwich.---Hood's Magazine. >> >> You can Google the title and find several links that will play the >> song. >> >> Leo Sonnenberg >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia mailing list, hosted by the: > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv.html > > > End of Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 65, Issue 5 > ************************************************** > > From koeppen at tpg.com.au Mon Oct 6 01:51:04 2008 From: koeppen at tpg.com.au (Ed Koeppen) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 19:51:04 +1100 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of Relativity" Message-ID: <71E5757463704A3D8F2337D425FD4C2D@Bayview> Hi Cathy, I agree entirely with comments made by Robert. I had FTM for several years but finally acquired Legacy then the Deluxe version. You should be aware that migration of your data will take time but it's worth it. If you use Legacy, the data fields are compatible with the Master Pedigree Database at SGGEE. It makes life much easier for Gary Warner (the Database Manager) if he is asked to merge your family data with the SGGEE Database. Ed Koeppen From ehaas3 at cox.net Mon Oct 6 08:18:44 2008 From: ehaas3 at cox.net (Eleanor) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 08:18:44 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of Relativity" In-Reply-To: <71E5757463704A3D8F2337D425FD4C2D@Bayview> References: <71E5757463704A3D8F2337D425FD4C2D@Bayview> Message-ID: <65B7B2DF732A4C31A456FD50DF4B842C@EleanorPC> I switched about 5 years ago and did a book with Legacy. . . I vote for them also! Eleanor Haas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Koeppen" To: Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 1:51 AM Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Re "Theory of Relativity" > Hi Cathy, I agree entirely with comments made by Robert. I had FTM for > several years but finally acquired Legacy then the Deluxe version. You > should be aware that migration of your data will take time but it's worth > it. > > If you use Legacy, the data fields are compatible with the Master Pedigree > Database at SGGEE. It makes life much easier for Gary Warner (the Database > Manager) if he is asked to merge your family data with the SGGEE Database. > > Ed Koeppen > > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.6/1709 - Release Date: 10/5/2008 9:20 AM From seipert at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 08:53:21 2008 From: seipert at gmail.com (Sue Eipert) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 08:53:21 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] genealogy software Message-ID: <48EA3471.3010208@gmail.com> On the topic of genealogy software, I would like to bring up Rootsmagic. It is a full-featured comprehensive software, but is easy to use. It has a very online active user group with close monitoring by its developer. http://www.rootsmagic.com/overview.htm I am eagerly waiting for version 4.0 which is due out before the end of the year. Many exciting features will be added - and are being gradually described in the developer's blog. The developer has stated that anyone buying version 3.0 now will be able to get v. 4.0 for free when it comes out. I have no connection with Rootsmagic other than being a satisfied user for many years. Sue Eipert From bonnieharwood at hotmail.com Mon Oct 6 09:12:05 2008 From: bonnieharwood at hotmail.com (bonnie harwood) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 16:12:05 +0000 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Michael Elgert Message-ID: I would like some advice, if possible, on how I could locate information on my gr.grandfather, Michael Elgert. I do not know where he was born, but have been given the birth date of Dec. 25, 1840; personally, I think he was born in Germany, but have no proof of this. He apparently died in 1919 in Kiev. The information that has been passed down to me is that Michael supervised installation of machinery in mills; that he had made several (?) trips to the United States, and on one occasion, had taken back the first steel plow to Russia. Also, he was a lay-minister. He married 4 times: #1 wife was Rosina David, ( I have no marriage date or place of marriage. ), but her death date was 1867....he had 3 children with her; #2 wife was Amalie Schmidt or Schmidtke, marriage date was Sept 20, 1867 at Zhitomer Parish....1 known child with her; #3 wife was Amalie Wolter, marriage date Nov. 6, 1869 also Zhitomer Parish....7 known children with her....she died Apr 1, 1882 at Parish Warwarowka; #4 wife was Pauline Sprenger, marriage date Jun 30, 1882 at Zhitomer Parish....3 known children. I don't know her death date but she was definetly gone by 1919; Michael refused to leave Russia when members of his family were leaving for Canada, Germany and parts unknown, and so died alone and a pauper in Kiev in 1919. I would like to verify, if possible, the story about what his work was and also more about the women he married and their families. I know information will be sparse and hard to come by, so am not expecting any miracles...but one never knows!!! Thanks........Bonnie MacPherson _________________________________________________________________ From gary at warnerengineering.com Mon Oct 6 11:59:15 2008 From: gary at warnerengineering.com (Gary Warner) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 11:59:15 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] genealogy software In-Reply-To: <48EA3471.3010208@gmail.com> References: <48EA3471.3010208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48EA6003.2000601@warnerengineering.com> Sue, I am not familiar with that program, so it is not my intent to belittle it in any way. May I ask if it will do the following: 1. Will it FIND and truly MERGE data that is inconsistent between two records? Most software will first not find records to merge unless they are truly duplicates in all respects. And mot programs that do find such inconsistencies will then not merge the data, but carry the inconsistent data as an "alternate" piece of information, like an alternate birth date, etc.. This ability to merge is paramount if you are ever to import data from us or anyone else without winding up with many duplicate records? 2. Does it use master lists for locations and surnames? This is again an important feature if you are going to eliminate duplicate records. 3. Does it have the capability to check your data for potential conflicts- like people with multiple sets of parents, births after the death of the mother, born after death, married before 13, etc.? 4. Does it require names to be entered in one field, or does it have separate fields for prefixes, given names, surnames, and suffixes? A single field for name entry can work, but it most often does not, and is one of the main sources of problems with merging of data, since the name can be exported incorrectly, and then a person might have a surname of Jr. or Elisabeth. 5. Does your program allow the entry of events in a manner that it does not combine event places and event activities into a single field? This is again another serious problem, since the export of data will move your event data into areas not intended. 6. Will your program allow you to save a double date? This feature is important when two sources of data have conflicting dates, and the ability to note such dates will usually cause you to pursue resolution of the conflict. There are also valid reasons for a double date, as is the case if you enter in both the old Julian calendar date and the modern Gregorian calendar date in the same record. Gary Warner SGGEE Sue Eipert wrote: > On the topic of genealogy software, I would like to bring up Rootsmagic. > It is a full-featured comprehensive software, but is easy to use. It has > a very online active user group with close monitoring by its developer. > http://www.rootsmagic.com/overview.htm > > I am eagerly waiting for version 4.0 which is due out before the end of > the year. Many exciting features will be added - and are being gradually > described in the developer's blog. The developer has stated that anyone > buying version 3.0 now will be able to get v. 4.0 for free when it comes > out. > > I have no connection with Rootsmagic other than being a satisfied user > for many years. > > Sue Eipert > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv > From FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca Mon Oct 6 14:53:23 2008 From: FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:53:23 -0600 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Michael Elgert In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bonnie, There really is not much to recommend when one is stuck at a certain generation without a location to search.? Since Elgert is not a particularly common name, it might? be worthwhile to explore some regions where the name occurs.? In looking at both the Master Pedigree Database and the Parish Records Index, you will see that about the only other pre1860 location we have for that surname is the Lipno / Sierpc district.? You may want to check that.? You could also try pursuing the David origins.? The PRI does not show them in Lipno but they are at Torun which is not very far away. I assume that you found, in the St. Pete records, the alternate spelling or mistranscribed variant of Eljert. Note also that place names like Warwarowka are not parish names.? They are village names within a parish which, depending on time frame and that region, could be Zhitomir or Heimtal. Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: bonnie harwood Date: Monday, October 6, 2008 10:18 am Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Michael Elgert To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org > > I would like some advice, if possible, on how I could locate > information on my gr.grandfather, Michael Elgert. I do not know > where he was born, but have been given the birth date of Dec. > 25, 1840; personally, I think he was born in Germany, but have > no proof of this. He apparently died in 1919 in Kiev. The > information that has been passed down to me is that Michael > supervised installation of machinery in mills; that he had made > several (?) trips to the United States, and on one occasion, had > taken back the first steel plow to Russia. Also, he was a lay- > minister. He married 4 times: #1 wife was Rosina David, ( I have > no marriage date or place of marriage. ), but her death date was > 1867....he had 3 children with her; #2 wife was Amalie Schmidt > or Schmidtke, marriage date was Sept 20, 1867 at Zhitomer > Parish....1 known child with her; #3 wife was Amalie Wolter, > marriage date Nov. 6, 1869 also Zhitomer Parish....7 known > children with her....she died Apr 1, 1882 at Parish Warwarowka; > #4 w > ? > _________________________________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv > From roseingram at shaw.ca Mon Oct 6 15:50:00 2008 From: roseingram at shaw.ca (Rose Ingram) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 15:50:00 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Legacy Genealogy program References: <928792.17674.qm@web54504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <001d01c9272f$a3ba6de0$6601a8c0@duocore> <3C1F710567F14F07828850C36814B777@margaret46066b> Message-ID: <003b01c92805$dd0a3130$6601a8c0@duocore> I have 4 genealogy programs on my computer. Legacy, PAF from the LDS site, Roots Magic and FTM ver.16. I keep them because sometimes I get data sent to me from other relatives that are not in gedcom format but a backup copy of their file. All programs do the job, but one should follow the instructions in each. I have found that FTM has one irritating issue that gets overlooked by many users - the whole name is typed in one line. If there is no surname entered for a woman and no double backslash \\ added after her given name, (eg. Anna Elisabeth\\) a gedcom of this data imported into another program will result in Elisabeth showing up as the Surname. So keep an eye on this. Rose Ingram From: marlo I also switched to Legacy only because Family Origin didn't publish anymore and then Roots Magic was suppose to be the same. Wrong!!! So after reading about Legacy I decided to try it and I love it. I would recommend to anyone. I use the deluxe version only because there are a few little things better than the free one. Margaret From: "Rose Ingram" > There has been some discussion about the Legacy Genealogy program. I too > switched several years ago to this program from the PAF program. > > You can read up on it and download the free standard version at > http://www.legacyfamilytree.com/ > > Also note there is free training video you can view for beginners to > Legacy. > > Rose Ingram From patterson.rachael at gmail.com Tue Oct 7 07:44:11 2008 From: patterson.rachael at gmail.com (Rachael Patterson) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 08:44:11 -0600 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] "Theory of Relativity" Message-ID: A quick addendum on the topic "Theory of Relativity". During my records research on my ancestors who were a part of the German colonization along the Vistula River in Schroettersdorf 1800's, many of them married 2nd cousins, and in fact I've found a couple of them who married 1st cousins. My 3rd cousin's GGrandmother (sis to my GGrandfather) was also related in another lineage that linked us... Could go into details with names & relationships, but just wanted to put my quick addendum to the topic. And, yes, I agree that they did not want to stray from the general populous of their German colonies, which was a part of the Kingdom of Poland, Russia. I'm hoping some of those positive genes have been passed down to some of us. Sadly, we carry a mix of genius & schizophrenia. Oh well... Not sure if that has any bearing on the cousins intermarrying though. Rachael Patterson Calgary, AB From carlastreifel at yahoo.ca Tue Oct 7 10:10:11 2008 From: carlastreifel at yahoo.ca (Carla Streifel) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 10:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Need help deciphering last name from death cert -- HEPPNES? (possibly Lodz area) Message-ID: <640650.48543.qm@web38105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello everyone, This is my first post here, and I'm hoping someone on this list?might be able to help me. I am tracing my Sonnenberg and Schultz family lines (they immigrated to Manitoba, Canada, from Lodz, Poland)?and I am off to the genealogical collection at our local library to look up a few more?records. However, I am having trouble deciphering a German name on?the death certificate of my great-grandmother (her mother's last name), and I was wondering if?people familiar with Lodz area families?might be able to suggest possible names. My great-grandmother was Emma Schultz (born in Poland, possibly in the?Lodz area, but I'm not sure, on Nov. 15, 1886). On her 1934 Canadian death certificate (she died in Vernon, BC, Canada), her father was listed as August Schultz, and her mother was listed as Justine Hepp---. This last name is the one I can't identify -- it could be Heppnes, but I'm not sure as I can't read the handwriting with any confidence. Is anyone familiar with this name from the Lodz area? Or any suggestions on what it might be? I can email a copy of the death cert if that would help anyone. Please note that I may be making a mistake by?assuming she was originally from Lodz, but her husband Karl Sonnenberg was born there, so I thought I would start there in any case. Many thanks in advance for your help! Carla Streifel BC, Canada __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. From ehaas3 at cox.net Tue Oct 7 10:35:18 2008 From: ehaas3 at cox.net (Eleanor) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 10:35:18 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Baked Knephla In-Reply-To: <640650.48543.qm@web38105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <640650.48543.qm@web38105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9C0E4A0AA2D14C9C8EA3AD4E42250577@EleanorPC> Does one serve Knephla with a meat or just with salad . . . I am going to use the Baked Knephla recipe of Edelgard Strobel that he posted on September 29th. I did not group up with German cooking so am not familar with how it is served. Thanks for your responses! Eleanor Haas From vister at worldnet.att.net Tue Oct 7 11:22:50 2008 From: vister at worldnet.att.net (Gloria & Chuck) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 11:22:50 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] food In-Reply-To: <29265103.28687411222701683160.JavaMail.nitido@priv-edtnes95> References: <29265103.28687411222701683160.JavaMail.nitido@priv-edtnes95> Message-ID: <05EC3ED371E24D40859CEE79ABE8F1E7@Home> I know this as Kartoffel und Kloes (potatoes and dumplings). It is served during the Fest in Odessa WA and is in some of the cookbooks printed by the Odessa Memorial Hospital Auxiliary. I wasn't brought up with German cooking but I sure love it. Gloria _____ From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of Rita Lyster Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 8:21 AM To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] food Here is another spelling-food sleuthing that might interest some of you: My aunt talks about something called (spelled phonetically) Choco Kilke (plat deutsch where choco means potato and kilke means dumpling) Apparently you cook potatoes and leave the water in, then make the dumpling (likely egg, flour and water or milk--not sure if it has baking powder) and then add the dumplings to the potatoes, cover and cook until dumplings are done. This can then be served with fried bacon and onions. Looking forward to someone with first hand knowledge of this one before I add it to the recipe book! Rita Lyster No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.5/1697 - Release Date: 9/29/2008 7:40 AM From Spaghettitree at aol.com Tue Oct 7 11:29:08 2008 From: Spaghettitree at aol.com (Spaghettitree@aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:29:08 EDT Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Need help deciphering last name from death cert -- ... Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://eclipse.sggee.org/pipermail/ger-poland-volhynia/attachments/20081007/380d9906/attachment.html From FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca Tue Oct 7 14:10:39 2008 From: FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 15:10:39 -0600 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Exciting News!!! St. Pete Records now on line! Message-ID: I can't believe that the Germans beat us to this announcement!? We knew from our convention that it was coming but I just found out about the reality of it from the German language Wolhynien Forum.? :-) ? You can now view original copies of St. Petersburg records on line! It is exciting also to see that these are the very first documents to appear in this regional category.? Go to http://labs.familysearch.org/ Click on "Record Search" to see a world map. Click on "Asia and Middle East" Click on the link for "Russia Lutheran Church Book Duplicates 1833-1885" The scroll window shows all the locations available on these St. Pete records.? Scroll down to the bottom and click on "Volyn" Any one of the next 3 links will take you to the info you want. You can of course continue to use our SGGEE extraction database to find the info but you can now additionally view the original document on line without going to your LDS Family History Library.? It appears that the on line images are not associated with original microfilm numbers.? You will therefore have to do your search for the record by the year and location of the event. Jerry? Frank From jjstange at gmail.com Tue Oct 7 14:52:17 2008 From: jjstange at gmail.com (Jim Stange) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:52:17 -0400 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Records for Landsberg Warthe Message-ID: <77f14bdd0810071452n72dc1a20v33ec6977f6d327ee@mail.gmail.com> Hello all, I am having difficulty in finding a birth record for my Great-Grandmother, Elizabeth Conrad. We have her birth recorded as October 12, 1895 in "Germany." The date is on several death announcements etc. from when she passed in 1968. The family had an old map of Germany with Landsberg Warthe (Gorz?w Wielkopolski) circled and it has been verbally passed down that this is the town where she was born. Several census reports show Germany as their birthplace, although one census has Posen crossed out and Germany written in... Another clue is that her name and her parents, Anna and Emil Conrad, appear in an address book for 1913 for Landsberg although Anna and Elizabeth emmigrated in June 1913. When I queried the Polish archives for the area to look up information on this family with the birth date provided, they found nothing! I do not know which parish they belonged to in Landsberg but I assume they were all referenced in the archive's search? The Ellis Island web site does not link properly to the original ship manifest so I am unable to check that source for reference to a town name and I do not have a subscription to ancestry.com at the moment to pull down the immigration record. Is it possible that these Lutheran records for Landsberg are not at the Polish state archives? The only other reason I could think of is that the family moved into Landsberg between 1896 and 1900 and the record resides in another archive. Does anyone have any ideas how I may be able to trace Elizabeth Conrad and her family? Thanks in advance for any suggestions. Jim Stange From roseingram at shaw.ca Tue Oct 7 15:06:01 2008 From: roseingram at shaw.ca (Rose Ingram) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:06:01 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Records for Landsberg Warthe References: <77f14bdd0810071452n72dc1a20v33ec6977f6d327ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <009201c928c8$e2b5b820$6601a8c0@duocore> Jim, The Landsberg records are in German Archives. See the following from the Library Catalog. But these filmed records may not cover the time period you need. http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/printing/titledetailsprint.asp?titleno=237012 Rose Ingram ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Stange To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 2:52 PM Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Records for Landsberg Warthe Hello all, I am having difficulty in finding a birth record for my Great-Grandmother, Elizabeth Conrad. We have her birth recorded as October 12, 1895 in "Germany." The date is on several death announcements etc. from when she passed in 1968. The family had an old map of Germany with Landsberg Warthe (Gorz?w Wielkopolski) circled and it has been verbally passed down that this is the town where she was born. Several census reports show Germany as their birthplace, although one census has Posen crossed out and Germany written in... Another clue is that her name and her parents, Anna and Emil Conrad, appear in an address book for 1913 for Landsberg although Anna and Elizabeth emmigrated in June 1913. When I queried the Polish archives for the area to look up information on this family with the birth date provided, they found nothing! I do not know which parish they belonged to in Landsberg but I assume they were all referenced in the archive's search? The Ellis Island web site does not link properly to the original ship manifest so I am unable to check that source for reference to a town name and I do not have a subscription to ancestry.com at the moment to pull down the immigration record. Is it possible that these Lutheran records for Landsberg are not at the Polish state archives? The only other reason I could think of is that the family moved into Landsberg between 1896 and 1900 and the record resides in another archive. Does anyone have any ideas how I may be able to trace Elizabeth Conrad and her family? Thanks in advance for any suggestions. Jim Stange _______________________________________________ Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv From FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca Tue Oct 7 15:13:00 2008 From: FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 16:13:00 -0600 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Records for Landsberg Warthe In-Reply-To: <77f14bdd0810071452n72dc1a20v33ec6977f6d327ee@mail.gmail.com> References: <77f14bdd0810071452n72dc1a20v33ec6977f6d327ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jim, According to http://baza.archiwa.gov.pl/sezam/pradziad.php?l=en the Lutheran and Reformed records for Gorz?w Wielkopolski stop at 1874 but civilian records continue on to 1944.? They probably limited their search to that specific location.? It is also possible, I suppose, that the entry did not make it into the civil registry. You have already surmised correctly that they may have lived in a village within Landsberg Kreis rather than the actual town which will make your search difficult.? Hopefully someone can help with an Ancestry lookup to find that village name. Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Stange Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 3:56 pm Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Records for Landsberg Warthe To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org > Hello all, > > I am having difficulty in finding a birth record for my Great- > Grandmother,Elizabeth Conrad.? We have her birth recorded > as October 12, 1895 in > "Germany."? The date is on several death announcements etc. > from when she > passed in 1968.? The family had an old map of Germany with > Landsberg Warthe > (Gorz?w Wielkopolski) circled and it has been verbally passed > down that this > is the town where she was born.? Several census reports > show Germany as > their birthplace, although one census has Posen crossed out and > Germanywritten in...? Another clue is that her name and her > parents, Anna and Emil > Conrad, appear in an address book for 1913 for Landsberg > although Anna and > Elizabeth emmigrated in June 1913. > > When I queried the Polish archives for the area to look up > information on > this family with the birth date provided, they found > nothing!? I do not know > which parish they belonged to in Landsberg but I assume they > were all > referenced in the archive's search?? The Ellis Island web > site does not link > properly to the original ship manifest so I am unable to check > that source > for reference to a town name and I do not have a subscription to > ancestry.com at the moment to pull down the immigration > record.? Is it > possible that these Lutheran records for Landsberg are not at > the Polish > state archives?? The only other reason I could think of is > that the family > moved into Landsberg between 1896 and 1900 and the record > resides in another > archive. > > Does anyone have any ideas how I may be able to trace Elizabeth > Conrad and > her family?? Thanks in advance for any suggestions. > > Jim Stange > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv > From gary at warnerengineering.com Tue Oct 7 15:38:44 2008 From: gary at warnerengineering.com (Gary Warner) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 15:38:44 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Exciting News!!! St. Pete Records now on line! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48EBE4F4.1070701@warnerengineering.com> Jerry, It looks like our database is going to be even more important as a resource to find a particular image. Gary Jerry Frank wrote: > I can't believe that the Germans beat us to this announcement! We knew from our convention that it was coming but I just found out about the reality of it from the German language Wolhynien Forum. :-) You can now view original copies of St. Petersburg records on line! > > It is exciting also to see that these are the very first documents to appear in this regional category. > > Go to http://labs.familysearch.org/ > > Click on "Record Search" to see a world map. > > Click on "Asia and Middle East" > > Click on the link for "Russia Lutheran Church Book Duplicates 1833-1885" > > The scroll window shows all the locations available on these St. Pete records. Scroll down to the bottom and click on "Volyn" > > Any one of the next 3 links will take you to the info you want. > > You can of course continue to use our SGGEE extraction database to find the info but you can now additionally view the original document on line without going to your LDS Family History Library. It appears that the on line images are not associated with original microfilm numbers. You will therefore have to do your search for the record by the year and location of the event. > > > Jerry Frank > > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv > > From seipert at gmail.com Tue Oct 7 17:47:10 2008 From: seipert at gmail.com (Sue Eipert) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:47:10 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] genealogy software In-Reply-To: <48EA6003.2000601@warnerengineering.com> References: <48EA3471.3010208@gmail.com> <48EA6003.2000601@warnerengineering.com> Message-ID: <48EC030E.9090507@gmail.com> Gary, I realize that Legacy is a very good program, and I haven't had enough experience with it to do a direct comparison of the two. I really just want to make the point that Rootsmagic is also a very good full-featured program - and will be even better with version 4 (soon). Some people have found it easier to use than Legacy. To answer your specific questions: 1. Rootsmagic has an extensive Merge function. I haven't used it enough to know the details. 2. Rootsmagic has a master list for Places. Each place can have a name, a note field, latitude and longitude, and attached links to multimedia. The new edition coming up has enhanced abilities for handling names and alternate names. 3. Yes. Rootsmagic has a "Problem List". You can search for several things, including: Proper order of events, Birth before parent's marriage, Birth before parent's birth, etc. Also - Age at death, marriage, etc, between your choice of ages 4. Names are entered in separate fields for Surname, Given Name, Prefix, Suffix, Nickname. 5. Facts and events have separate fields for Date, Place, Description. Each fact or event also has attached sources, notes and multimedia. Sue Gary Warner wrote: > Sue, > > I am not familiar with that program, so it is not my intent to belittle > it in any way. May I ask if it will do the following: > > 1. Will it FIND and truly MERGE data that is inconsistent between two > records? Most software will first not find records to merge unless > they are truly duplicates in all respects. And mot programs that do > find such inconsistencies will then not merge the data, but carry the > inconsistent data as an "alternate" piece of information, like an > alternate birth date, etc.. This ability to merge is paramount if you > are ever to import data from us or anyone else without winding up with > many duplicate records? > > 2. Does it use master lists for locations and surnames? This is > again an important feature if you are going to eliminate duplicate records. > > 3. Does it have the capability to check your data for potential > conflicts- like people with multiple sets of parents, births after the > death of the mother, born after death, married before 13, etc.? > > 4. Does it require names to be entered in one field, or does it have > separate fields for prefixes, given names, surnames, and suffixes? A > single field for name entry can work, but it most often does not, and is > one of the main sources of problems with merging of data, since the name > can be exported incorrectly, and then a person might have a surname of > Jr. or Elisabeth. > > 5. Does your program allow the entry of events in a manner that it does > not combine event places and event activities into a single field? > This is again another serious problem, since the export of data will > move your event data into areas not intended. > > 6. Will your program allow you to save a double date? This feature is > important when two sources of data have conflicting dates, and the > ability to note such dates will usually cause you to pursue resolution > of the conflict. There are also valid reasons for a double date, as is > the case if you enter in both the old Julian calendar date and the > modern Gregorian calendar date in the same record. > > Gary Warner > SGGEE > > > Sue Eipert wrote: >> On the topic of genealogy software, I would like to bring up >> Rootsmagic. It is a full-featured comprehensive software, but is easy >> to use. It has a very online active user group with close monitoring >> by its developer. http://www.rootsmagic.com/overview.htm >> >> I am eagerly waiting for version 4.0 which is due out before the end >> of the year. Many exciting features will be added - and are being >> gradually described in the developer's blog. The developer has stated >> that anyone buying version 3.0 now will be able to get v. 4.0 for free >> when it comes out. >> >> I have no connection with Rootsmagic other than being a satisfied user >> for many years. >> >> Sue Eipert >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by >> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org >> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv >> > > From ivanvep at gmail.com Tue Oct 7 19:03:02 2008 From: ivanvep at gmail.com (Ivan Teise) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 23:03:02 -0300 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Records for Landsberg Warthe In-Reply-To: <77f14bdd0810071452n72dc1a20v33ec6977f6d327ee@mail.gmail.com> References: <77f14bdd0810071452n72dc1a20v33ec6977f6d327ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jim, Looking at Ellis Island website I found the original ship manifest where Anna and Elisabeth are registered, lines 16 and 17: http://www.ellisislandrecords.org/cgi-bin/tif2gif.exe?T=\\192.168.4.227\images\t715-2102\t715-21020063.tif http://www.ellisislandrecords.org/cgi-bin/tif2gif.exe?T=\\192.168.4.227\images\t715-2102\t715-21020064.tif There you can see the last residence was Landsberg and fortunately you have their places of birth. I think the given city for Anna is Friedeberg (kreis Friedeberg, Brandenburg), now known as Strzelce Krajenskie. The place of birth of Elisabeth seems to be Pinne (kreis Samter, Posen), now known as Pniewy. Ivan From gary at warnerengineering.com Tue Oct 7 21:20:42 2008 From: gary at warnerengineering.com (Gary Warner) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 21:20:42 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] genealogy software In-Reply-To: <48EC030E.9090507@gmail.com> References: <48EA3471.3010208@gmail.com> <48EA6003.2000601@warnerengineering.com> <48EC030E.9090507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48EC351A.9000804@warnerengineering.com> Sue, Thanks for the information. I look forward to getting new data from you. Gary Sue Eipert wrote: > Gary, > > I realize that Legacy is a very good program, and I haven't had enough > experience with it to do a direct comparison of the two. > > I really just want to make the point that Rootsmagic is also a very > good full-featured program - and will be even better with version 4 > (soon). Some people have found it easier to use than Legacy. > > To answer your specific questions: > > 1. Rootsmagic has an extensive Merge function. I haven't used it > enough to know the details. > > 2. Rootsmagic has a master list for Places. Each place can have a > name, a note field, latitude and longitude, and attached links to > multimedia. The new edition coming up has enhanced abilities for > handling names and alternate names. > > 3. Yes. Rootsmagic has a "Problem List". You can search for several > things, including: Proper order of events, Birth before parent's > marriage, Birth before parent's birth, etc. Also - Age at death, > marriage, etc, between your choice of ages > > 4. Names are entered in separate fields for Surname, Given Name, > Prefix, Suffix, Nickname. > > 5. Facts and events have separate fields for Date, Place, Description. > Each fact or event also has attached sources, notes and multimedia. > > Sue > > Gary Warner wrote: >> Sue, >> >> I am not familiar with that program, so it is not my intent to >> belittle it in any way. May I ask if it will do the following: >> >> 1. Will it FIND and truly MERGE data that is inconsistent between >> two records? Most software will first not find records to merge >> unless they are truly duplicates in all respects. And mot programs >> that do find such inconsistencies will then not merge the data, but >> carry the inconsistent data as an "alternate" piece of information, >> like an alternate birth date, etc.. This ability to merge is >> paramount if you are ever to import data from us or anyone else >> without winding up with many duplicate records? >> >> 2. Does it use master lists for locations and surnames? This is >> again an important feature if you are going to eliminate duplicate >> records. >> >> 3. Does it have the capability to check your data for potential >> conflicts- like people with multiple sets of parents, births after >> the death of the mother, born after death, married before 13, etc.? >> >> 4. Does it require names to be entered in one field, or does it have >> separate fields for prefixes, given names, surnames, and suffixes? >> A single field for name entry can work, but it most often does not, >> and is one of the main sources of problems with merging of data, >> since the name can be exported incorrectly, and then a person might >> have a surname of Jr. or Elisabeth. >> >> 5. Does your program allow the entry of events in a manner that it >> does not combine event places and event activities into a single >> field? This is again another serious problem, since the export of >> data will move your event data into areas not intended. >> >> 6. Will your program allow you to save a double date? This feature >> is important when two sources of data have conflicting dates, and the >> ability to note such dates will usually cause you to pursue >> resolution of the conflict. There are also valid reasons for a >> double date, as is the case if you enter in both the old Julian >> calendar date and the modern Gregorian calendar date in the same record. >> >> Gary Warner >> SGGEE >> >> >> Sue Eipert wrote: >>> On the topic of genealogy software, I would like to bring up >>> Rootsmagic. It is a full-featured comprehensive software, but is >>> easy to use. It has a very online active user group with close >>> monitoring by its developer. http://www.rootsmagic.com/overview.htm >>> >>> I am eagerly waiting for version 4.0 which is due out before the end >>> of the year. Many exciting features will be added - and are being >>> gradually described in the developer's blog. The developer has >>> stated that anyone buying version 3.0 now will be able to get v. 4.0 >>> for free when it comes out. >>> >>> I have no connection with Rootsmagic other than being a satisfied >>> user for many years. >>> >>> Sue Eipert >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by >>> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org >>> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv >>> >> >> > From gary at warnerengineering.com Tue Oct 7 21:34:24 2008 From: gary at warnerengineering.com (Gary Warner) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 21:34:24 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Records for Landsberg Warthe In-Reply-To: References: <77f14bdd0810071452n72dc1a20v33ec6977f6d327ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48EC3850.3080808@warnerengineering.com> Ivan, Obviously Ellis Island and Ancestry.com had a different extraction of the records. Ancestry.com had Elisabeth listed with a surname of Lowrad. It all goes to show that everyone needs to look in more than one place for data, as extraction is not perfect. Gary Warner Ivan Teise wrote: > Jim, > > Looking at Ellis Island website I found the original ship manifest where > Anna and Elisabeth are registered, lines 16 and 17: > > http://www.ellisislandrecords.org/cgi-bin/tif2gif.exe?T=\\192.168.4.227\images\t715-2102\t715-21020063.tif > > http://www.ellisislandrecords.org/cgi-bin/tif2gif.exe?T=\\192.168.4.227\images\t715-2102\t715-21020064.tif > > There you can see the last residence was Landsberg and fortunately you have > their places of birth. I think the given city for Anna is Friedeberg (kreis > Friedeberg, Brandenburg), now known as Strzelce Krajenskie. The place of > birth of Elisabeth seems to be Pinne (kreis Samter, Posen), now known as > Pniewy. > > Ivan > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv > > From dnmiller at whiz.to Tue Oct 7 22:04:02 2008 From: dnmiller at whiz.to (Don Miller) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 22:04:02 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Volhynian Village Adventure Tour Message-ID: <000901c92903$47f81090$6501a8c0@DonMiller> The next Volhynian Village Adventure Tour is scheduled for September 6-20, 2009. A brochure with the details is now available by going to my website www.volhynia.org and clicking on Tours. If you scroll down to the end of the brochure, you will also find a detailed report of the most recent tour conducted May/2008 entitled, "Tracing Our Roots." Don Miller Tour Guide From sigmatt at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 7 22:27:08 2008 From: sigmatt at sbcglobal.net (Sig Matt) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 22:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Records for Landsberg Warthe Message-ID: <330299.42637.qm@web82206.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Jim, I happened to be looking at a German pre-WWII and post-WWII map just now. It shows Landsberg/ Warthe about 45 km NE of Kuestrin (today Kostrzyn [ since 1945] ) lying directly on the Warthe River. Kuestrin lies directly east of today's German-Polish border and is located about 75 km due east of Berlin.? In the time period you are searching Landsberg was German territory. Would that?make the Berlin Archives a place to start your search? Sig ? ----- Original Message ---- From: Jerry Frank To: Jim Stange Cc: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 3:13:00 PM Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Records for Landsberg Warthe Jim, According to http://baza.archiwa.gov.pl/sezam/pradziad.php?l=en the Lutheran and Reformed records for Gorz?w Wielkopolski stop at 1874 but civilian records continue on to 1944.? They probably limited their search to that specific location.? It is also possible, I suppose, that the entry did not make it into the civil registry. You have already surmised correctly that they may have lived in a village within Landsberg Kreis rather than the actual town which will make your search difficult.? Hopefully someone can help with an Ancestry lookup to find that village name. Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Stange Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 3:56 pm Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Records for Landsberg Warthe To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org > Hello all, > > I am having difficulty in finding a birth record for my Great- > Grandmother,Elizabeth Conrad.? We have her birth recorded > as October 12, 1895 in > "Germany."? The date is on several death announcements etc. > from when she > passed in 1968.? The family had an old map of Germany with > Landsberg Warthe > (Gorz?w Wielkopolski) circled and it has been verbally passed > down that this > is the town where she was born.? Several census reports > show Germany as > their birthplace, although one census has Posen crossed out and > Germanywritten in...? Another clue is that her name and her > parents, Anna and Emil > Conrad, appear in an address book for 1913 for Landsberg > although Anna and > Elizabeth emmigrated in June 1913. > > When I queried the Polish archives for the area to look up > information on > this family with the birth date provided, they found > nothing!? I do not know > which parish they belonged to in Landsberg but I assume they > were all > referenced in the archive's search?? The Ellis Island web > site does not link > properly to the original ship manifest so I am unable to check > that source > for reference to a town name and I do not have a subscription to > ancestry.com at the moment to pull down the immigration > record.? Is it > possible that these Lutheran records for Landsberg are not at > the Polish > state archives?? The only other reason I could think of is > that the family > moved into Landsberg between 1896 and 1900 and the record > resides in another > archive. > > Does anyone have any ideas how I may be able to trace Elizabeth > Conrad and > her family?? Thanks in advance for any suggestions. > > Jim Stange > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv > _______________________________________________ Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv From gloriah4 at juno.com Wed Oct 8 05:01:16 2008 From: gloriah4 at juno.com (Gloria Hoppe) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 07:01:16 -0500 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Need help deciphering last name from death cert -- ... Message-ID: <20081008.082402.2736.4.gloriah4@juno.com> Maureen and Carla, IF the first name on your list (below) were to have the second letter as an "O" instead of an "E" it would make the name "Hoppe" which is my husband's family name. We don't know of any of his family coming from the Lodz area but then we don't know for sure that they didn't either. His parents immigrated from Neudorf Volhynia in 1926. His uncle(s) went on to settle in various parts of Canada (although mostly Alberta I THINK). We do have reason to think that some great grandparents were from Poland, but then that surname was Sawatzki. Since the Hoppe's and the Sawatzki's obviously hooked up SOMEwhere, it could have been in Poland or in most anywhere else in the region. Anyway, I realize that the odds are pretty low of your great-great grandmother's name being Hoppe (probably not likely at all). But, just in case there is a slim possibility that it is indeed the name on the certificate, I thought I'd throw it into the mix. Whatever it turns out to be, good hunting! Gloria Hoppe On Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:29:08 EDT Spaghettitree at aol.com writes: Carla, you are welcome to send an e-mail to me of that death certificate if you like, and I will take a look - and see how it compares to what others see. In one German Surnames book, there are some possibilities: Heppe Heppel Hepp(l)er Hepperle Heppele Hepperlin van Heppen Hep(p)ner Heptner H?ppner H?ptner Hepting Maureen From: Carla Streifel To: ger-poland-volhynia list Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 10:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Need help deciphering last name from death cert -- HEPPNES? (possibly Lodz area) Message-ID: <640650.48543.qm at web38105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >I am tracing my Sonnenberg and Schultz family lines (they immigrated to Manitoba, Canada, from Lodz, Poland) ....... >My great-grandmother was Emma Schultz (born in Poland, possibly in the Lodz area, but I'm not sure, on Nov. 15, 1886). On her >1934 Canadian death certificate (she died in Vernon, BC, Canada), her father was listed as August Schultz, and her mother was >listed as Justine Hepp---. This last name is the one I can't identify -- it could be Heppnes, but I'm not sure as I can't read the >handwriting with any confidence. >Carla Streifel >BC, Canada ____________________________________________________________ Click here to become a professional counselor in less time than you think. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oJto3hepdF21qN9biBt2fa09lNJOY11KNiN0HXD62MN4UuT/ From textor_jan at hotmail.com Wed Oct 8 08:18:33 2008 From: textor_jan at hotmail.com (Jan Textor) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 17:18:33 +0200 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Exciting News!!! St. Pete Records now on line! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How aggravating that "the system is currently down for maintenance". Can't wait for it to be up and running again. :-) Jan Textor > Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:10:39 -0600> From: FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca> To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Exciting News!!! St. Pete Records now on line!> > I can't believe that the Germans beat us to this announcement! We knew from our convention that it was coming but I just found out about the reality of it from the German language Wolhynien Forum. :-) You can now view original copies of St. Petersburg records on line!> > It is exciting also to see that these are the very first documents to appear in this regional category. > > Go to http://labs.familysearch.org/> > Click on "Record Search" to see a world map.> > Click on "Asia and Middle East"> > Click on the link for "Russia Lutheran Church Book Duplicates 1833-1885"> > The scroll window shows all the locations available on these St. Pete records. Scroll down to the bottom and click on "Volyn"> > Any one of the next 3 links will take you to the info you want.> > You can of course continue to use our SGGEE extraction database to find the info but you can now additionally view the original document on line without going to your LDS Family History Library. It appears that the on line images are not associated with original microfilm numbers. You will therefore have to do your search for the record by the year and location of the event.> > > Jerry Frank> > > _______________________________________________> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv From maurmike1 at verizon.net Wed Oct 8 08:31:55 2008 From: maurmike1 at verizon.net (MIKE MCHENRY) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 11:31:55 -0400 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Exciting News!!! St. Pete Records now on line! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <020a01c9295a$ff2b40f0$fd81c2d0$@net> The upside of that is they may be adding more records! MIKE maurmike1 at verizon.net -----Original Message----- From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of Jan Textor Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 11:19 AM To: Jerry Frank; ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Exciting News!!! St. Pete Records now on line! How aggravating that "the system is currently down for maintenance". Can't wait for it to be up and running again. :-) Jan Textor > Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:10:39 -0600> From: FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca> To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org> Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Exciting News!!! St. Pete Records now on line!> > I can't believe that the Germans beat us to this announcement! We knew from our convention that it was coming but I just found out about the reality of it from the German language Wolhynien Forum. :-) You can now view original copies of St. Petersburg records on line!> > It is exciting also to see that these are the very first documents to appear in this regional category. > > Go to http://labs.familysearch.org/> > Click on "Record Search" to see a world map.> > Click on "Asia and Middle East"> > Click on the link for "Russia Lutheran Church Book Duplicates 1833-1885"> > The scroll window shows all the locations available on these St. Pete records. Scroll down to the bottom and click on "Volyn"> > Any one of the next 3 links will take you to the info you want.> > You can of course continue to use our SGGEE extraction database to find the info but you can now additionally view the original document on line without going to your LDS Family History Library. It appears that the on line images are not associated with original microfilm numbers. You will therefore have to do your search for the record by the year and location of the event.> > > Jerry Frank> > > _______________________________________________> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv _______________________________________________ Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv From Spaghettitree at aol.com Wed Oct 8 09:25:30 2008 From: Spaghettitree at aol.com (Spaghettitree@aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 12:25:30 EDT Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Hoppe/Heppe et al. Message-ID: Hi Gloria and Carla - Welllllllll, you may have something connecting Hoppe and Heppe somewhere, and then again, maybe not. A great deal depends upon how it sounds and who is saying it and what their language is and what century it is and what area of what country they may be living in and, on top of that, long before there were any spelling rules, who was writing it down without really considering there may be a "right" way and a "wrong" way because there weren't any. Sometimes one portion or another was chopped off or abbreviated. And then translation upon translation upon Anglicization and it becomes a crooked country path indeed. Maybe that's what makes country paths so enchanting to explore - and why I love going down dirt roads with no names just to see where they wind up. So, Hoppe sounds like Hoppy to Americans, Hohp-eh to a German (the e is barely pronounced), but with the umlaut or e added to represent the umlaut, H?ppe, it is pronounced (by a German) more like Heppe but with a mouth-twist which people in the western hemisphere don't usually know how to do. These pronunciations are widely variable over time and place, so everything I've written may be different from anything you've seen. Given the gazillion dialects in Germanic speaking countries, piled on to obsolete usage, added to misheard or misunderstood verbal versions, you can see how this expands. You might compare how bizarre ordinary American English accents vary from Brooklyn to Texas to Louisiana to Montana and all points inbetween, none of it sounding like the Queen's English except, perhaps, some portions of Appalachia, believe it or not. I was born and raised in Missouri and had no idea I had an accent until I came to California and someone said I had a "twang" - which I didn't like being told because I am a word-person, book-person, language-person, artist (as opposed to a computer whiz and anything containing numeric formulae). I finally figured out it is only the letter '"i" which sounds more like "ah". Just one sound! To some people, that made me "country" when I grew up in the suburbs of a large city. As to Hoppe, et al., Hans Bahlow says: H?pfner - Low German H?ppner, also in East Central Germany-Silesia area besides H?ptner, Heptner. Heppner: Bavarian Hopf(n)er: hop farmer and dealer; the importance of hop for beer brewing in the Middle Ages is reflected by the frequent street name "Hopfenmarkt"; the cities also had so-called Hopfenh?user (hops buildings) where the burghers who had a brewing license could buy their hops (Peter Rote "im hopfenhowse". Liegnitz 1387); hence hop gardens or fields show up in place names like Hopfgarten, Hoppegarten. Surnames for hop growers are Hoppenfreter = Hoppener, Barth 1326, Hoppensack, Rostock 1270 (from a register of hop growers) Hopfenstock (Breslau, G?rlitz; today Hopfstock, Hopferebe (both mean hop vine) Kirchheim 1275, Hoppestrunk, Cologne 1142, also Hopf, H?pfl. Hoppe, see this. Hoppe: East German-Silesien, Low German, occupational surname for a hop grower or hopper; documented in Liegnitz 1417-33; Hannus Hoppe = Hans Hopphener, in Glatz; H?pfel = Hopfener. In Hanks and Hodges' Dictionary of Surnames: H?pfner: German occupational name for a grower of hops or dealer in hops, or occupational nickname for a brewer, from the use of hops in the manufacture of beer, from German Hopfen hops (Middle High German hopfe, Old High German Hopfo) + -er suffix of agent nouns. Varieties: H?pfer, H?ptner, Heptner, Hep(p)ner, Hopf(n)er, Bavaria - Hopf. Cognitives: Jewish (Ashkenasic) Hopfer, Hoffner, Hopman. Low German: H?ppner, Hoppe. Dutch: Hopman, Van Hoppe. Diminutive German: H?pfli (Switzerland) Then again, in Elsdon Smith's New Dictionary of American Names: Hoppe, Hopp: English - Descendant of Hop or Hob, pet forms of Robert (fame, bright). - another path altogether! In Brechenmacher's Etyomological Dictionary: Hopfer (occupation) Hopfenbauer. 1395 Joh. Hopffer zu Augst (Basel). H?pfner, Low German Hoppner, H?ppner, (occupation), Hopfenbauer. 1304 Wetzelin Hoppener zu Greifwald. 1533 Kaspar H?pfner (H?[ner) aus Frankenberg (Sa.) Hopp(e): sowiet oberd. zu "hoppen" = h?pfen (stolpern). Ankn?pfungspunkte an den (forename) Hubert finde ich oberd. nicht 1321 Berthold der Hoppe (etwas sp?ter Hopp) zu Andelsbach (Sigmaringen); Hopfenbauer, 1446 Widericus Hoppe, Kleriker des Bremer Stifts, k?nigl. Schreiber. See Hopfe. As to a connection with Sawatzki, you need someone who is fluent in Polish. All I could find is Saw/n/t - the Biblical name Sawa - Aramaic saba (accent over first a) meaning "old man". Zawad-i,pl - zawada, "obstacle, impediment" - fortress. Bear in mind the gentleman on one of these boards recently who inquired about his male ancestor who was known as Kwiatkowski and Bl?me both. Kwiat is Polish for flower; Bl?me is German for flower. Anglizice that to Bloom, or even Flower or Blossom. Well, I got carried away here, but chasing the histories of surnames just adds to all that we are, I think. Maureen Schoenky ************** New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out! (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000001) From eboro20 at peak.org Thu Oct 9 16:41:24 2008 From: eboro20 at peak.org (Ellen Borowski) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:41:24 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Rootsmagic - have question about In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200810092341.m99NTLro035687@mail02.peak.org> Does Root.magic encompass all countries or just the U.S. -Ellen Borowski From ndseagirl at hotmail.com Thu Oct 9 21:14:22 2008 From: ndseagirl at hotmail.com (Lonnie Scallen) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 21:14:22 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Need help finding film number...... Message-ID: I am hoping some one can help me find a microfilm. I have a Schimming family that was living in Buchthal Friednow kries Arnswalde in 1857. Johann Friedrick Schimming was married to a Wilhelmine Neumann there in that year. They had a child, Julius Schimming who was born 2 August 1858 there. I have checked the FHC Library and can not find a film that will show me this information. Are there any other towns I could look for that might have that town in it? Thank you for any help you can give me. Lonnie Scallen _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093175mrt/direct/01/ From ndseagirl at hotmail.com Thu Oct 9 22:09:26 2008 From: ndseagirl at hotmail.com (Lonnie Scallen) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 22:09:26 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Need help finding film number..... Message-ID: I am trying to find a film that will show me information on my Schimming famly. Johann Friedrick Schimming was born in 1835 in Louisenau. I have checked the FHC Library and can't find any films that include that town. Does anyone know where I could check to find what I am looking for? Thank you for your help. Lonnie Scallen _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together?at home, work, or on the go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ From rakow at ifh.de Fri Oct 10 11:41:22 2008 From: rakow at ifh.de (Paul Rakow) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 20:41:22 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Records for Landsberg Warthe: Jerry Springer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jim, On British TV there's a genealogy series that looks into the family history of TV people. They recently had a very good programme on the TV presenter Jerry Springer, whose father and grandfather ran a shoe-shop in Landsberg. You might find it interesting, go to http://www.bbc.co.uk/whodoyouthinkyouare/new-stories/jerry-springer/index.shtml and follow the link "Find out how we did it", or go straight to http://www.bbc.co.uk/whodoyouthinkyouare/new-stories/jerry-springer/how-we-did-it_2.shtml for the page about Landsberg. (both addresses should be all one line - they might get chopped up in the email). The Landsberg page might give you some ideas about what is in the Landsberg archives, Paul Rakow rakow at ifh.de > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim Stange > Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Records for Landsberg Warthe > >> Hello all, >> >> I am having difficulty in finding a birth record for my Great- >> Grandmother,Elizabeth Conrad.? We have her birth recorded >> as October 12, 1895 in >> "Germany."? The date is on several death announcements etc. >> from when she >> passed in 1968.? The family had an old map of Germany with >> Landsberg Warthe >> (Gorz?w Wielkopolski) circled and it has been verbally passed >> down that this >> is the town where she was born.? Several census reports >> show Germany as >> their birthplace, although one census has Posen crossed out and >> Germanywritten in...? Another clue is that her name and her >> parents, Anna and Emil >> Conrad, appear in an address book for 1913 for Landsberg >> although Anna and >> Elizabeth emmigrated in June 1913. >> >> When I queried the Polish archives for the area to look up >> information on >> this family with the birth date provided, they found >> nothing!? I do not know >> which parish they belonged to in Landsberg but I assume they >> were all >> referenced in the archive's search?? The Ellis Island web >> site does not link >> properly to the original ship manifest so I am unable to check >> that source >> for reference to a town name and I do not have a subscription to >> ancestry.com at the moment to pull down the immigration >> record.? Is it >> possible that these Lutheran records for Landsberg are not at >> the Polish >> state archives?? The only other reason I could think of is >> that the family >> moved into Landsberg between 1896 and 1900 and the record >> resides in another >> archive. >> >> Does anyone have any ideas how I may be able to trace Elizabeth >> Conrad and >> her family?? Thanks in advance for any suggestions. >> >> Jim Stange >> From dr.stewner at t-online.de Fri Oct 10 12:50:22 2008 From: dr.stewner at t-online.de (Dr. Frank Stewner) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 21:50:22 +0200 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Louisenau (=Luisenau) Message-ID: <16C6721E756E4655A5779E79293FB0FC@haupt> There are two Luisenau of former German area and now in Poland: I copy from my Excel file: Village German Village today Inhab County D [ PL] Gmina today Powiat today Provinz [Woiwodschaft] N E Luisenau Bytyn 10 Dramburg [Drawsko] Tuczno Walcz Pommern [Zachodniopomorskie] 531545 161401 Luisenau Ludwiniec 190 Mogilno [Mogilno] Pakosc Inowroclaw Posen [Wielkopolskie] 524648 180254 Frank Stewner From dr.stewner at t-online.de Fri Oct 10 13:05:07 2008 From: dr.stewner at t-online.de (Dr. Frank Stewner) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 22:05:07 +0200 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Finding German Locations like Buchthal Message-ID: <1F570079691E4A629BBB29D9C8A73224@haupt> There is a very powerful possibiltiy to find German locations in Germany of all times and also of Volhynia. The link is http://gov.genealogy.net/ It is the Genealogische Orts-Verzeichnis short (GOV) with coordinates and links to Google Earth and other maps. It tries to show the administrative organistion during the time. Another possibility is "Kartenmeister" in English: http://www.kartenmeister.com/preview/databaseuwe.asp That one is good in finding the Kreise (counties) and Provinzen (states) of about 1905 thus before WW I. It has also coordinates but no link to maps. You will still need good maps for Poland: the best I found are on http://www.mapywig.org/viewpage.php?page_id=7 They are of best quality and thus pretty big. Frank Stewner From benovich at imt.net Sat Oct 11 14:40:59 2008 From: benovich at imt.net (Richard Benert) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 15:40:59 -0600 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] The Long Trek Message-ID: <004c01c92bea$0d38aed0$0500a8c0@richard01> List members who are not members of AHSGR (American Historical Society of Germans from Russia) may not be aware that in the latest issue of their Journal (Vol. 31, no. 3, Fall, 2008) is a long and worthwhile article by Eric Schmaltz on the removal of ethnic Germans from the Ukraine (including Volhynia) in 1943 and 1944 by Nazi forces. I'd recommend it to anyone whose relatives went through that experience and to anyone just curious about it. It's called, "The 'Long Trek': The SS Population Transfer of Ukrainian Germans to the Polish Warthegau and its Consequences, 1943-1944." The footnotes provide a long list of suggestions for further reading. Copies of the Journal can be obtained from www.ahsgr.org, under "Products", "Journals". The charge for non-members is $4.50 + shipping. Dick Benert -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1719 - Release Date: 10/10/2008 4:08 PM From dr.stewner at t-online.de Sun Oct 12 00:08:05 2008 From: dr.stewner at t-online.de (Dr. Frank Stewner) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 09:08:05 +0200 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 65, Issue 13 References: Message-ID: <9A4CB99915C8477D921A224D118AF31F@haupt> Sorry but my Excel lines looked not so condensed. Here want want to send: Village German Village today Inhab County D [ PL] Gmina today Powiat today Provinz [Woiwodschaft] N E Luisenau Bytyn 10 Dramburg [Drawsko] Tuczno Walcz Pommern [Zachodniopomorskie] 531545 161401 Luisenau Ludwiniec 190 Mogilno [Mogilno] Pakosc Inowroclaw Posen [Wielkopolskie] 524648 180254 Frank Stewner > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Louisenau (=Luisenau) (Dr. Frank Stewner) > 2. Finding German Locations like Buchthal (Dr. Frank Stewner) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 21:50:22 +0200 > From: "Dr. Frank Stewner" > Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Louisenau (=Luisenau) > To: > Message-ID: <16C6721E756E4655A5779E79293FB0FC at haupt> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > > There are two Luisenau of former German area and now in Poland: > I copy from my Excel file: > Village German Village today Inhab County D [ PL] Gmina today Powiat > today Provinz [Woiwodschaft] N E > Luisenau Bytyn 10 Dramburg [Drawsko] Tuczno Walcz Pommern > [Zachodniopomorskie] 531545 161401 > Luisenau Ludwiniec 190 Mogilno [Mogilno] Pakosc Inowroclaw Posen > [Wielkopolskie] 524648 180254 > > > Frank Stewner > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 22:05:07 +0200 > From: "Dr. Frank Stewner" > Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Finding German Locations like Buchthal > To: > Message-ID: <1F570079691E4A629BBB29D9C8A73224 at haupt> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > > There is a very powerful possibiltiy to find German locations in Germany > of all times and also of Volhynia. > The link is http://gov.genealogy.net/ It is the Genealogische > Orts-Verzeichnis short (GOV) with coordinates and links to Google Earth > and other maps. It tries to show the administrative organistion during the > time. > Another possibility is "Kartenmeister" in English: > http://www.kartenmeister.com/preview/databaseuwe.asp > That one is good in finding the Kreise (counties) and Provinzen (states) > of about 1905 thus before WW I. It has also coordinates but no link to > maps. > You will still need good maps for Poland: the best I found are on > http://www.mapywig.org/viewpage.php?page_id=7 > They are of best quality and thus pretty big. > Frank Stewner > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia mailing list, hosted by the: > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv.html > > > End of Ger-Poland-Volhynia Digest, Vol 65, Issue 13 > *************************************************** From farose at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 06:13:16 2008 From: farose at gmail.com (F&RM Haddad) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 06:13:16 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] SGGEE membership Message-ID: Not a member yet? Take it from me, a brand-new member, this will be some of the best money you will spend on genealogy! I'm still mining the wealth of information in the members-only section of the website, and will for some time yet! Between the master database of genealogical information from members' own pedigrees and the database of researched information that is ongoing, (and with some extra help from friendly and generous members) I've added several generations to one direct line, and several more to collateral lines. There are maps that are very detailed and specific to our research area, and back issues of the journal. Speaking of which, a huge thank-you, Jerry Frank, for your article on translating Polish records. I have the article printed off, and it is almost dog-eared! And speaking of which - now when I look people in the eye and see the eyes are blue, I light-heartedly think, "hmmm - we're probably very distant cousins!" Don't know what I'm talking about? An article in the last journal. Researchers in this group have been incredibly helpful - you know who you are - and to those who have helped me so generously, thank-you so much! I know I haven't said all there is to say about the benefits of membership - others may add to it - but here's another perk for new members. Get your membership now, this month, in October, and you will have 15 months for the price of 12. You won't be sorry, I guarantee! A very happy new member - Rose-Marie Haddad (researching Gohl, Sell, Bartz, Gleske - and others) From FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca Sun Oct 12 08:52:32 2008 From: FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 09:52:32 -0600 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] SGGEE membership In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <726mdt$11ij1r@pd3mo1so-svcs.prod.shaw.ca> Thank you for your comments, Rose Marie. Just to add that, within a few days, you will be able to register on line using PayPal or credit card. We are doing our last testing of the system today and, if everything goes well, we'll open it to the public soon after. Jerry Frank - Calgary, Alberta FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca At 07:13 AM 12/10/2008, F&RM Haddad wrote: >Not a member yet? Take it from me, a brand-new member, this will be some of >the best money you will spend on genealogy! I'm still mining the wealth of >information in the members-only section of the website, and will for some >time yet! Between the master database of genealogical information from >members' own pedigrees and the database of researched information that is >ongoing, (and with some extra help from friendly and generous members) I've >added several generations to one direct line, and several more to collateral >lines. There are maps that are very detailed and specific to our research >area, and back issues of the journal. Speaking of which, a huge thank-you, >Jerry Frank, for your article on translating Polish records. I have the >article printed off, and it is almost dog-eared! > >And speaking of which - now when I look people in the eye and see the >eyes are blue, I light-heartedly think, "hmmm - we're probably very distant >cousins!" Don't know what I'm talking about? An article in the last journal. > >Researchers in this group have been incredibly helpful - you know who you >are - and to those who have helped me so generously, thank-you so much! > >I know I haven't said all there is to say about the benefits of membership - >others may add to it - but here's another perk for new members. Get your >membership now, this month, in October, and you will have 15 months for the >price of 12. You won't be sorry, I guarantee! > >A very happy new member - > >Rose-Marie Haddad >(researching Gohl, Sell, Bartz, Gleske - and others) > From patterson.rachael at gmail.com Sun Oct 12 16:42:15 2008 From: patterson.rachael at gmail.com (Rachael Patterson) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 17:42:15 -0600 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] SGGEE membership Message-ID: > > Ditto on that! I was searching on the web for five hours one stent a few years ago.... and finally came across the listservelist for sggee... and threw out my names search.... and got mega hits... mega breakthroughs in my searches on my family lineages. .....inclusive of encouragement to join the sggee membership. After joining, I found much more info in my research on my family lineages, and was able to eventually add info... ligitmitized via my records research. Please join... if you haven't already.... you will not be disappointed. Rachael From FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca Mon Oct 13 12:39:23 2008 From: FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:39:23 -0600 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] On line membership registration now available Message-ID: <79pc8o$q63r5@pd6mo1no-svcs.prod.shaw.ca> On line registration / renewal for membership is now available. You can also now pay via PayPal using their system or credit card. Our membership pages http://www.sggee.org/organization/membership have changed but testers advise that the process is easy and painless. You can of course still register the old fashioned way using snail mail and cheques. For our German readers, we are in process of offering this using German language pages as well. However, there have been some delays with the translation. Until they are available, you may use the English language pages linked above. Advantages of paying on line: - registration process completed in days instead of weeks (sometimes less than a day) - on line registration is fixed in Canadian dollars so your real cost in your currency may be lower due to the exchange rate changes. - simplifies the work of our membership chairman immensely - no need to purchase stamps, write cheques, make a trip to the post office, etc. So go ahead - give it a try. Jerry Frank - Calgary, Alberta FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca From DrVbuzz at aol.com Tue Oct 14 13:42:08 2008 From: DrVbuzz at aol.com (DrVbuzz@aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:42:08 EDT Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] German word definition Message-ID: What does the German word Pathen mean? I've checked two German dictionaries and it is not in either. Victor Gess Researching in Poland and Volhynia Gering/Gess/Jeske/Jess/Kwast/Mildner/Rode/Wonnick-ek-eck/Riske IwanokaJulianowka/Karlswalde/Moczulki/Satyjew/Shinufka Bielsko/Chmielewo/Kalisch/Karolinow/Plock **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002) From duesterhoeft at gmx.de Tue Oct 14 13:58:02 2008 From: duesterhoeft at gmx.de (duesterhoeft@gmx.de) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 22:58:02 +0200 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] German word definition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48F507DA.5000607@gmx.de> DrVbuzz at aol.com schrieb am 14.10.2008 22:42: > What does the German word Pathen mean? I've checked two German > dictionaries and it is not in either. That is because in modern German the 'h' has been dropped. "Paten" are godparents. Stefan From DrVbuzz at aol.com Tue Oct 14 14:34:55 2008 From: DrVbuzz at aol.com (DrVbuzz@aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 17:34:55 EDT Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] German word definition Message-ID: Thank you for the responses, both on board and direct. Victor **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002) From thejoneses at shaw.ca Mon Oct 20 13:10:37 2008 From: thejoneses at shaw.ca (Carol Jones) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 15:10:37 -0500 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks Message-ID: Can anyone tell what "Musziks" are, with regard to an item written by Virginia Less in the SSGEE Journal Dec 2000 p.7; as in "Volhynians returning from deportation in Siberia found their land destroyed and the Musziks had taken over what little there was left." Carol researching "Which Wurch/Werch/Wuerch/Wirch/Wuirch is which" From haraldbick at aol.com Mon Oct 20 15:06:27 2008 From: haraldbick at aol.com (Harald Bick) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:06:27 +0200 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks (= Muschiks) Message-ID: <48FD00E3.3050704@aol.com> Carol Jones schrieb: > Can anyone tell what "Musziks" are, with regard to an item written by Virginia Less in the SSGEE Journal Dec 2000 p.7; as in "Volhynians returning from deportation in Siberia found their land destroyed and the Musziks had taken over what little there was left." > > Carol researching "Which Wurch/Werch/Wuerch/Wirch/Wuirch is which" > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv > Hello Carol, look at "http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muschik" Best wishes Harald Bick From colnels at telus.net Mon Oct 20 19:00:13 2008 From: colnels at telus.net (Nelson Itterman) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:00:13 -0600 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks (= Muschiks) In-Reply-To: <48FD00E3.3050704@aol.com> References: <48FD00E3.3050704@aol.com> Message-ID: <000001c93320$c1eacb50$45c061f0$@net> I don't think that is the meaning of the term. I think we should ask Virginia Less what she understands the meaning to be. Nelson -----Original Message----- From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of Harald Bick Sent: October-20-08 4:06 PM To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks (= Muschiks) Carol Jones schrieb: > Can anyone tell what "Musziks" are, with regard to an item written by Virginia Less in the SSGEE Journal Dec 2000 p.7; as in "Volhynians returning from deportation in Siberia found their land destroyed and the Musziks had taken over what little there was left." > > Carol researching "Which Wurch/Werch/Wuerch/Wirch/Wuirch is which" > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German > Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at > http://www.sggee.org/listserv > Hello Carol, look at "http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muschik" Best wishes Harald Bick _______________________________________________ Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv From gary at warnerengineering.com Mon Oct 20 19:13:25 2008 From: gary at warnerengineering.com (Gary Warner) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:13:25 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks (= Muschiks) In-Reply-To: <000001c93320$c1eacb50$45c061f0$@net> References: <48FD00E3.3050704@aol.com> <000001c93320$c1eacb50$45c061f0$@net> Message-ID: <48FD3AC5.3090606@warnerengineering.com> Nelson, Too late to ask in this life. Virginia died in February of 2008. Gary Warner Nelson Itterman wrote: > I don't think that is the meaning of the term. I think we should ask > Virginia Less what she understands the meaning to be. > Nelson > > -----Original Message----- > From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org > [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of Harald > Bick > Sent: October-20-08 4:06 PM > To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org > Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks (= Muschiks) > > > Carol Jones schrieb: > >> Can anyone tell what "Musziks" are, with regard to an item written by >> > Virginia Less in the SSGEE Journal Dec 2000 p.7; as in "Volhynians returning > from deportation in Siberia found their land destroyed and the Musziks had > taken over what little there was left." > >> Carol researching "Which Wurch/Werch/Wuerch/Wirch/Wuirch is which" >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German >> Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at >> http://www.sggee.org/listserv >> >> > > Hello Carol, > > look at "http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muschik" > > Best wishes > > Harald Bick > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German Genealogy in > Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at > http://www.sggee.org/listserv > > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv > From esonnenburg at sympatico.ca Mon Oct 20 19:45:07 2008 From: esonnenburg at sympatico.ca (Ed Sonnenburg) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 22:45:07 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks (= Muschiks) References: <48FD00E3.3050704@aol.com> <000001c93320$c1eacb50$45c061f0$@net> Message-ID: I heard that word when I was growing up. It was a derogatory term the Germans gave the Russians or Poles. One Mujik or plural Mujiken. The J was pronounced with a soft "g" like Zsa Zsa Ed -------Original Message------- From: Nelson Itterman Date: 10/20/2008 10:05:46 PM To: 'Harald Bick'; ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks (= Muschiks) I don't think that is the meaning of the term. I think we should ask Virginia Less what she understands the meaning to be. Nelson -----Original Message----- From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of Harald Bick Sent: October-20-08 4:06 PM To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks (= Muschiks) Carol Jones schrieb: > Can anyone tell what "Musziks" are, with regard to an item written by Virginia Less in the SSGEE Journal Dec 2000 p.7; as in "Volhynians returning >From deportation in Siberia found their land destroyed and the Musziks had Taken over what little there was left." > > Carol researching "Which Wurch/Werch/Wuerch/Wirch/Wuirch is which" > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German > Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at > http://www.sggee.org/listserv > Hello Carol, Look at "http://de.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Muschik" Best wishes Harald Bick _______________________________________________ Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv _______________________________________________ Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv From ocjw at rogers.com Mon Oct 20 19:27:41 2008 From: ocjw at rogers.com (OMAR WELKE) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks (= Muschiks) In-Reply-To: <48FD3AC5.3090606@warnerengineering.com> Message-ID: <806511.19372.qm@web88102.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I replied privately earlier to Carol ... I heard my grandfather Adolf Welke use this term mmmmany years ago when refering to the non-German?inhabitants of Volhynia and never in a good light. So personally I grew up thinking this was some sort of derogatory term the German settlers used for their Russian neighbours ... kind of like?white South Africans used Kafir to refer to any black African.?My 2 cents worth?... I may be wrong. Omar Welke --- On Tue, 10/21/08, Gary Warner wrote: From: Gary Warner Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks (= Muschiks) To: "Nelson Itterman" Cc: "'Harald Bick'" , ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org Received: Tuesday, October 21, 2008, 2:13 AM Nelson, Too late to ask in this life. Virginia died in February of 2008. Gary Warner Nelson Itterman wrote: > I don't think that is the meaning of the term. I think we should ask > Virginia Less what she understands the meaning to be. > Nelson > > -----Original Message----- > From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org > [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of Harald > Bick > Sent: October-20-08 4:06 PM > To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org > Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks (= Muschiks) > > > Carol Jones schrieb: > >> Can anyone tell what "Musziks" are, with regard to an item written by >> > Virginia Less in the SSGEE Journal Dec 2000 p.7; as in "Volhynians returning > from deportation in Siberia found their land destroyed and the Musziks had > taken over what little there was left." > >> Carol researching "Which Wurch/Werch/Wuerch/Wirch/Wuirch is which" >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German >> Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at >> http://www.sggee.org/listserv >> >> > > Hello Carol, > > look at "http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muschik" > > Best wishes > > Harald Bick > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German Genealogy in > Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at > http://www.sggee.org/listserv > > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv > _______________________________________________ Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv From helle53 at t-online.de Tue Oct 21 06:32:29 2008 From: helle53 at t-online.de (helle53@t-online.de) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:32:29 +0200 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Muschiken Message-ID: <1KsHLZ-0Q44Qa0@fwd01.aul.t-online.de> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://eclipse.sggee.org/pipermail/ger-poland-volhynia/attachments/20081021/6d743ee7/attachment.html From colnels at telus.net Tue Oct 21 09:32:27 2008 From: colnels at telus.net (Nelson Itterman) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 10:32:27 -0600 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Muschiken In-Reply-To: <1KsHLZ-0Q44Qa0@fwd01.aul.t-online.de> References: <1KsHLZ-0Q44Qa0@fwd01.aul.t-online.de> Message-ID: <001301c9339a$9bc85f30$d3591d90$@net> I think Helmut has it right. They were the Communist ?Louts?. Nelson From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of helle53 at t-online.de Sent: October-21-08 7:32 AM To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Muschiken Hallo Auch ich h?rte fr?her bein meinen Gro?eltern ?fter die Bezeichnung Muschiken. Ich hatte immer den Eindruck, des w?rde sich um einfache russische Bauern handeln. ----------- Wikipedia: Muschik ist: * das russische Wort f?r einen (leibeigenen ) Bauern, umgangssprachlich auch f?r alter Kerl Erst unter dem Reformzaren Alexander II. wurde die Leibeigenschaft der abwertend als ?Muschiks? bezeichneten Bauern am 19. Februarjul. / 3. M?rz 1861greg. abgeschafft, etwa f?nfzig Jahre sp?ter als in Westeuropa. ----------- Unter Muschiken Und Tataren: Erlebnisse E. Russlanddeutschen by Otto Krause Hardcover, Verlag der St.-Johannis-Druckerei Schweickhardt, ISBN 3501002157 (3-501-00215-7) ---------- ?Wenn man den Muschiken (R?peln) zu viel Freiheit l?sst, werden sie sich gegenseitig zerquetschen.? (Boris Pasternak ?Doktor Schiwago?) ?If you give the mushikes (louts) too much freedom, they will crush one another.? (Boris Pasternak, Doctor Zhivago) ----------- mit freundlichen Gr??en Helmut Gutknecht From thejoneses at shaw.ca Tue Oct 21 09:43:33 2008 From: thejoneses at shaw.ca (Carol Jones) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:43:33 -0500 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks Message-ID: <67BBCA62D4D143BBBBD9EA27EF846757@GENE> I'm going to go with Helmut's interpretation of Musziks: Communist "Louts". Thanks everyone for your helpful responses. Carol researching "Which Wurch/Werch/Wuerch/Wirch/Wuirch is which" From maurmike1 at verizon.net Tue Oct 21 10:09:50 2008 From: maurmike1 at verizon.net (MIKE MCHENRY) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:09:50 -0400 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks In-Reply-To: <67BBCA62D4D143BBBBD9EA27EF846757@GENE> References: <67BBCA62D4D143BBBBD9EA27EF846757@GENE> Message-ID: <00b901c9339f$d4bccf10$7e366d30$@net> It occurred to me that the word could easily be spelled MUSHIK SZ=SH in pronunciation. When you Google this word it is a "Russian peasant, living under the conditions of serfdom" MIKE -----Original Message----- From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of Carol Jones Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 12:44 PM To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks I'm going to go with Helmut's interpretation of Musziks: Communist "Louts". Thanks everyone for your helpful responses. Carol researching "Which Wurch/Werch/Wuerch/Wirch/Wuirch is which" _______________________________________________ Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv From dnmiller at whiz.to Tue Oct 21 10:28:54 2008 From: dnmiller at whiz.to (Don Miller) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 10:28:54 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks Message-ID: <00dd01c933a2$7d9cb3f0$6501a8c0@DonMiller> My mother and father who immigrated to Canada from the Zhitomir region on January 5, 1927 (before the "Communist louts" settled in) often talked about the Musziks. They referred to them as "socially backward' Russian Ukrainians, who were not very motivated to work. "All they did," my father used to say "is drink and dance." don miller From maurmike1 at verizon.net Tue Oct 21 11:17:38 2008 From: maurmike1 at verizon.net (MIKE MCHENRY) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:17:38 -0400 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks In-Reply-To: <00dd01c933a2$7d9cb3f0$6501a8c0@DonMiller> References: <00dd01c933a2$7d9cb3f0$6501a8c0@DonMiller> Message-ID: <00c501c933a9$4d3c5920$e7b50b60$@net> Here is an excerpt from "THE ECONOMIST" 1843. We have seen the Emperor; here is his subject. The mushik is an individual belonging to the "black people," the Russian term for the lower orders:- "At the first glance there is something exceedingly repulsive in the Russian mushik. His hair is long and shaggy, and so is his beard; his person is dirty, he is always noisy; and when wrapped up in his sheepskin he certainly presents a figure more suitable for a bandit or a murderer than for a man devoted to peaceable occupations. This apparent rudeness, however, is less a part of the man himself than of his hair and beard, of his shaggy sheepskin, and the loud deep tone of his voice. The stranger who is able to address him with kindness in his native language, soon discovers in the mushik a good-humoured, friendly, harmless, and serviceable creature. 'Good day, brother, how goes it?' 'Good day, father, thank God it goes well with me. What is your pleasure? How can I serve you?' And at these words his face unbends into a simpering smile, the hat is taken off, the glove drawn from the hand, bow follows bow, and he will catch your hand with native politeness and good-humoured cordiality."-P. 63. Though good-humoured and polite, however, sad to say, the mushik, according to our author, is apt to be both a cheat and a sot. He is a clever fellow, too, as the following anecdote will prove:- MIKE -----Original Message----- From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of Don Miller Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 1:29 PM To: Volhnia Mailing List Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks My mother and father who immigrated to Canada from the Zhitomir region on January 5, 1927 (before the "Communist louts" settled in) often talked about the Musziks. They referred to them as "socially backward' Russian Ukrainians, who were not very motivated to work. "All they did," my father used to say "is drink and dance." don miller _______________________________________________ Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv From benovich at imt.net Tue Oct 21 11:32:13 2008 From: benovich at imt.net (Richard Benert) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 12:32:13 -0600 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks References: <67BBCA62D4D143BBBBD9EA27EF846757@GENE> <00b901c9339f$d4bccf10$7e366d30$@net> Message-ID: <006401c933ab$575014e0$0500a8c0@richard01> My father also used to refer to "dem muzhiks" with a kind of sneer in his voice that implied their inferiority. The condescension was only in the mind of the muzhiks' German neighbors. The term itself was commonly used by educated Russians to refer to Russian peasants throughout the nineteenth century, both before and after the freeing of the serfs. It was used even by writers who admired the peasant way of life. For instance, A. N. Engelgardt, a landowner who got along well with the peasants surrounding his estate, told the Populists (a group of would-be reformers who also admired the peasants and hoped to improve their lot as well as to learn from them the virtues of the communal village way of life), "For practical study, the best book is the muzhik. Study with him, look at what he does, how he does it, try to learn what the muzhik knows. .... for he knows an awful lot." No one thought more highly of the peasants than Dostoyevsky, and he also referred to them as muzhiks. Cathy Frierson, author of "Peasant Icons: Representations of Rural People in 19th-century Russia," says that the term was used only for Russian peasants. Western peasants were referred to as "paysan." Where does this idea that a muzhik is a "communist Lout" come from? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "MIKE MCHENRY" To: "'Carol Jones'" ; Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks > It occurred to me that the word could easily be spelled MUSHIK SZ=SH in > pronunciation. When you Google this word it is a "Russian peasant, living > under the conditions of serfdom" > > MIKE > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org > [mailto:ger-poland-volhynia-bounces at eclipse.sggee.org] On Behalf Of Carol > Jones > Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 12:44 PM > To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org > Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks > > I'm going to go with Helmut's interpretation of Musziks: Communist > "Louts". > Thanks everyone for your helpful responses. > > Carol researching "Which Wurch/Werch/Wuerch/Wirch/Wuirch is which" > > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv > > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1719 - Release Date: 10/10/2008 4:08 PM -------------- next part -------------- Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1719 - Release Date: 10/10/2008 4:08 PM From rlyster at telusplanet.net Tue Oct 21 20:17:31 2008 From: rlyster at telusplanet.net (Rita Lyster) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:17:31 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks Message-ID: <10138464.5147471224645451912.JavaMail.nitido@priv-edtnes94> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://eclipse.sggee.org/pipermail/ger-poland-volhynia/attachments/20081021/1d21938e/attachment.html From textor_jan at hotmail.com Wed Oct 22 00:05:48 2008 From: textor_jan at hotmail.com (Jan Textor) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 09:05:48 +0200 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks In-Reply-To: <10138464.5147471224645451912.JavaMail.nitido@priv-edtnes94> References: <10138464.5147471224645451912.JavaMail.nitido@priv-edtnes94> Message-ID: Rita Lyster wrote: < What was derogatory was when the Polish called Germans Nimses or Schwabies. > These words are not derogatory in themselves: 1) The Polish word Niemcy simply means Germany or Germans. 2) The German word Schwaben (in English = Swabia or Swabians) designates a region in southwestern Germany and/or the people living in that region. Read more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swabia Jan Textor http://textor.dk/homepage From shoning at q.com Wed Oct 22 07:16:33 2008 From: shoning at q.com (George Shoning) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 08:16:33 -0600 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks In-Reply-To: References: <10138464.5147471224645451912.JavaMail.nitido@priv-edtnes94> Message-ID: Pardon me for prolonging this discussion, but I want to point out an observation that can be inferred from Richard Benert?s note on this subject a few days ago. Whether or not this word was derogatory depends on the emotion or tone with which it was expressed. I recall being called ?Niemcy?, ?Niemiec?, ?niemiecki? by Polish boys after WW II with some amount of ill will and my parents calling some Russians ?Musziken? with some disdain. George Shoning > From: textor_jan at hotmail.com> To: rlyster at telusplanet.net> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 09:05:48 +0200> CC: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org> Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rita Lyster wrote:> > < What was derogatory was when the Polish called Germans Nimses or Schwabies. >> > These words are not derogatory in themselves:> > 1) The Polish word Niemcy simply means Germany or Germans. > > 2) The German word Schwaben (in English = Swabia or Swabians) designates a region in southwestern Germany and/or the people living in that region. Read more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swabia> > Jan Textor> http://textor.dk/homepage> > > > _______________________________________________> Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by> Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org> Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv From benovich at imt.net Wed Oct 22 13:47:37 2008 From: benovich at imt.net (Richard Benert) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:47:37 -0600 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] "Louts" Message-ID: <007601c93487$6b183e30$0500a8c0@richard01> I hate to be a thorn in everyone's side, but I really think we need to be careful about assigning epithets to people. I'm not sure what a "lout" is, but I suspect we're referring to the Bolshevik b_____s in leather jackets who carried out the arresting, deporting and murdering of our people. I can't be sure about this, but I'd suspect that few of these guys were actual working farmers (muzhiks), but rather were alienated, dislocated, unemployed city boys trying to get ahead by joining the party. They may have been born as muzhiks, but I think that the Russians would not have thought of them as such once they moved to the city. Small difference, perhaps, but it isn't fair to a whole class of millions of peasants to think of them all as criminals. There may be stories in which neighboring farmers (muzhiks) took part in the destruction of their neighboring Germans, but this would almost surely have been the exception, not the rule. At least so I think. Any comments? Dick -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1739 - Release Date: 10/22/2008 7:23 AM From GHBoehm at ish.de Wed Oct 22 15:01:05 2008 From: GHBoehm at ish.de (=?windows-1252?Q?G=FCnther_B=F6hm?=) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 00:01:05 +0200 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Musziks In-Reply-To: References: <10138464.5147471224645451912.JavaMail.nitido@priv-edtnes94> Message-ID: <48FFA2A1.9060007@ish.de> George Shoning schrieb: > Pardon me for prolonging this discussion, but I want to point out an observation that can be inferred from Richard Benert?s note on this subject a few days ago. Whether or not this word was derogatory depends on the emotion or tone with which it was expressed. I recall being called ?Niemcy?, ?Niemiec?, ?niemiecki? by Polish boys after WW II with some amount of ill will and my parents calling some Russians ?Musziken? with some disdain. > > George Shoning Hello George, a muzhik is nothing else but a peasant. muzh = man, groom, husband muzhik = man, fellow, chap - indeed nothing negative. In the Russian army, a muzhik is the humble private. The officers smoke(d) papyrossi, the muzhiks hand-rolled bags of makhorka slack and newspaper pieces. G?nther From viknkit at comcast.net Thu Oct 23 18:48:23 2008 From: viknkit at comcast.net (Viktor Struch) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 20:48:23 -0500 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] muzhik Message-ID: <93C5D53532E84CB193F0F1E43D5A024A@YOURE485780E11> Hello to all, Reading the many explanations of muzhik, I decided to call a russian friend to get the correct translation. She said that in general the word is not derogatory, but in a heated confrontation it can be used as a demeaning insult. Viktor -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.5 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 72 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message From kopetzke at gmx.net Fri Oct 24 05:02:58 2008 From: kopetzke at gmx.net (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Irene_K=F6nig?=) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:02:58 +0200 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Gravestone Photo Project Message-ID: <4901B972.4020806@gmx.net> wolhynien.de has launched the Volhynia Gravestone Project with the goal of archiving digital images of the gravestones of our ancestors. http://wolhynien.de/db/gr/index.php There is no English version but you will be able to find names (Namen) and cemeteries (Friedh?fe) by using the navigation on the left side. We have started with only 30 names on 28 gravestones but are hoping that the database will grow over time as records are added. The database includes a full listing of names and dates from the stones. Although we know that most of the old cemeteries are neglected and hard to find, if ever, and that the eroded gravestones are overgrown by rambling weeds and brushwood there must be more pictures out there. I you have a photo (or know of someone who has), please, submit the scanned or digital gravestone photo to mail at wolhynien.de If available, send it in it's original file size, do not compress the photo to make the file size smaller. Compressing the image will affect the quality of the image. If the inscription on the photo is not clearly readable, consider including the wording. We ask you to also include the cemetery name, the year the photo was taken and the name of the photographer. Thank you for any help you may be able to provide. Irene Koenig http://wolhynien.de/ From michael.stockhausen.ff at web.de Sat Oct 25 14:23:51 2008 From: michael.stockhausen.ff at web.de (Michael Stockhausen) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 23:23:51 +0200 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Steinbring in Witkowo References: <79pc8o$q63r5@pd6mo1no-svcs.prod.shaw.ca> Message-ID: <27695C1814D440ADB0648E4DC58038A9@name54xk1bba18> I found this entry in the Poznan Project database: Protestant community in Witkowo, entry # 9 in 1856, Gottfried Steinbring (35) father: Michael Steinbring; Caroline Kunkel (20) father: Peter Kunkel Gottfried could be the son of my ancestors Michael Steinbring and Christine Zobel. Does anybody have any additional information on the above mentioned record, e.g. where was Gottfried born and what his mother's name? Thanks Michael From my.mailbox.acm at googlemail.com Sun Oct 26 02:20:33 2008 From: my.mailbox.acm at googlemail.com (Christoph) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 10:20:33 +0100 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] FROESCHKE from Volhynia Message-ID: <316ef540810260220j17d37ab6ja74cda2bffe73489@mail.gmail.com> Hello everybody. Maybe someone is able to help us. We are looking for the family name " FROESCHKE " in Volhynia. Have anyone seen this name in the microfilms ?? Specially we are looking for the name in relation with MANTEI. Philipp FROESCHKE is the cousin of Christoph MANTEI * 1898 in Wincentow. An aunt of Christoph married a " FROESCHKE " The Froeschke family data in the SGGEE database has no relation to Philipp . Unfortunately we don?t have further details of Philipp Thks for help Christoph From FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca Sun Oct 26 09:09:11 2008 From: FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 10:09:11 -0600 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] FROESCHKE from Volhynia In-Reply-To: <316ef540810260220j17d37ab6ja74cda2bffe73489@mail.gmail.com > References: <316ef540810260220j17d37ab6ja74cda2bffe73489@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7ablht$1id02i@pd5mo1no-svcs.prod.shaw.ca> Christoph, Have you considered alternate spellings? In the St. Petersburg extractions I see Fraske Freske Frieske Friske Frischke Froschke Any of these could be legitimate variations or extraction errors. Of course these are all pre1885 so establishing a firm connection without verifying data may still be a problem. Jerry Frank - Calgary, Alberta FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca At 03:20 AM 26/10/2008, Christoph wrote: >Hello everybody. >Maybe someone is able to help us. >We are looking for the family name " FROESCHKE " in Volhynia. Have anyone >seen this name in the microfilms ?? >Specially we are looking for the name in relation with MANTEI. >Philipp FROESCHKE is the cousin of Christoph MANTEI * 1898 in Wincentow. An >aunt of Christoph married a " FROESCHKE " >The Froeschke family data in the SGGEE database has no relation to Philipp . >Unfortunately we don?t have further details of Philipp > >Thks for help > >Christoph > From ra_stein at telus.net Sun Oct 26 09:32:19 2008 From: ra_stein at telus.net (Richard Stein) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 10:32:19 -0600 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] FROESCHKE from Volhynia In-Reply-To: <316ef540810260220j17d37ab6ja74cda2bffe73489@mail.gmail.com> References: <316ef540810260220j17d37ab6ja74cda2bffe73489@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2CD9C9523D1F40A3B604F2D964893AC8@RichardPC> Hi Christoph, I have an interest in the Froeschke name in connection to my Riske ancestors who lived in Anielowka, Kreis Lutzk, Volhynia, quite close to the Wincentow of your Christoph Mantei. Heinrich Froeschke was married to Pauline Riske, almost certainly a sister of my great grandfather, Gustav Riske. After Pauline died, Henrich married Rosine Lach. There were many children and it is possible that Philipp descends from one of them. You may find more post-1885 Froeschke names in the 23800xy series of microfilms which have Rozyszcze parish births to 1899 and marriages and deaths to 1895. There is at least one other Froeschke family in the area, Johann Froeschke / Julianne Rux with daughter Pauline born in 1885. The Mantei name also appears in the area. Dick Stein ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christoph" To: Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 3:20 AM Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] FROESCHKE from Volhynia Hello everybody. Maybe someone is able to help us. We are looking for the family name " FROESCHKE " in Volhynia. Have anyone seen this name in the microfilms ?? Specially we are looking for the name in relation with MANTEI. Philipp FROESCHKE is the cousin of Christoph MANTEI * 1898 in Wincentow. An aunt of Christoph married a " FROESCHKE " The Froeschke family data in the SGGEE database has no relation to Philipp . Unfortunately we don?t have further details of Philipp Thks for help Christoph _______________________________________________ Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv From Earl.Schultz at telusplanet.net Sun Oct 26 20:13:42 2008 From: Earl.Schultz at telusplanet.net (Earl.Schultz) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 22:13:42 -0500 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Steinbring in Witkowo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8EF7A5C2D55E4F9499A1BFDEBF3236D5@Desktop> Michael, this Steinbring/Kunkel family is being featured in the December issue of the SGGEE Journal. I have forwarded your post to the author of the article. Hopefully, you will be able to help each other. Earl Schultz ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 23:23:51 +0200 From: "Michael Stockhausen" Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Steinbring in Witkowo To: Message-ID: <27695C1814D440ADB0648E4DC58038A9 at name54xk1bba18> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original I found this entry in the Poznan Project database: Protestant community in Witkowo, entry # 9 in 1856, Gottfried Steinbring (35) father: Michael Steinbring; Caroline Kunkel (20) father: Peter Kunkel Gottfried could be the son of my ancestors Michael Steinbring and Christine Zobel. Does anybody have any additional information on the above mentioned record, e.g. where was Gottfried born and what his mother's name? Thanks Michael ------------------------------ From bronklimach at gmail.com Tue Oct 28 07:54:14 2008 From: bronklimach at gmail.com (Bronwyn Klimach) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 14:54:14 +0000 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Steinbring in Witkowo In-Reply-To: <27695C1814D440ADB0648E4DC58038A9@name54xk1bba18> References: <79pc8o$q63r5@pd6mo1no-svcs.prod.shaw.ca> <27695C1814D440ADB0648E4DC58038A9@name54xk1bba18> Message-ID: <129d86830810280754k63dacb12ma05d3ca4b199de06@mail.gmail.com> Michael, Many Poznan records are now online as digital images http://labs.familysearch.org/ Usually you would hire the film from which this information has been extracted to look at the complete entry and see what other information has been given. Kind regards, Bronwyn Klimach. On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 9:23 PM, Michael Stockhausen < michael.stockhausen.ff at web.de> wrote: > I found this entry in the Poznan Project database: > > Protestant community in Witkowo, entry # 9 in 1856, Gottfried Steinbring > (35) father: Michael Steinbring; Caroline Kunkel (20) father: > Peter Kunkel > > Gottfried could be the son of my ancestors Michael Steinbring and Christine > Zobel. Does anybody have any additional information on the above mentioned > record, e.g. where was Gottfried born and what his mother's name? > > Thanks > > Michael > > > _______________________________________________ > Ger-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by > Society for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org > Mailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv > From rakowsz at club-internet.fr Tue Oct 28 12:58:26 2008 From: rakowsz at club-internet.fr (rakowsz@club-internet.fr) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:58:26 +0100 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Request about maps Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://eclipse.sggee.org/pipermail/ger-poland-volhynia/attachments/20081028/57e70de5/attachment.html From daveobee at shaw.ca Tue Oct 28 13:11:12 2008 From: daveobee at shaw.ca (Dave Obee) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:11:12 -0700 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Rowno area maps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Links are here: http://volhynia.com/topo/ru-M35W.html Dave Obee ----- Original Message ----- From: rakowsz at club-internet.fr Date: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 13:03 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Request about maps To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org Flashmail BODY, TABLE, TR, TD, P {margin:0;padding:0;} BODY {background:#FFFFFF;} Hello everyone , I have a special request .? Please would you know where I could get a detailed map of the Rowno region . If you have a web link that would be great . We are trying to locate a few places we came across in an article . Thank you very? much Estelle From FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca Tue Oct 28 13:13:26 2008 From: FranklySpeaking at shaw.ca (Jerry Frank) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 14:13:26 -0600 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Request about maps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For maps at 1:100,000 from inter-war period try http://www.mapywig.org/news.php For maps 1:200,000 (less detail) from pre WW I, try http://www.volhynia.com/topo/me200.html Neither of these are indexed. For pointers to other map resources for the area, use http://www.sggee.org/maps If you need help locating a specific village, write back with its name. Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: rakowsz at club-internet.fr Date: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 2:04 pm Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Request about maps To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org Flashmail BODY, TABLE, TR, TD, P {margin:0;padding:0;} BODY {background:#FFFFFF;} Hello everyone , I have a special request .? Please would you know where I could get a detailed map of the Rowno region . If you have a web link that would be great . We are trying to locate a few places we came across in an article . Thank you very? much Estelle From rakowsz at club-internet.fr Wed Oct 29 12:18:39 2008 From: rakowsz at club-internet.fr (rakowsz@club-internet.fr) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 20:18:39 +0100 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Request about maps Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://eclipse.sggee.org/pipermail/ger-poland-volhynia/attachments/20081029/d66f4de8/attachment.html From kaiser116 at aol.com Fri Oct 31 09:51:47 2008 From: kaiser116 at aol.com (kaiser116@aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 12:51:47 -0400 Subject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships In-Reply-To: <708126.74564.qm@web55304.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CB099018EAB223-888-550@webmail-da03.sysops.aol.com> Hallo SGGEE Group! Yes this is an interesting subject for discussion. My grandparents, both now deceased, born in Wolynien just east of Zwiahel, shared a similar last name, "Arendt" or sometimes spelled "Arndt" in photos I've seen from those days in Ukraine. My research in the EWZ files at the Archives II in?College Park, MD?has revealed a complete file on my grandmother's brother's family also under the name Arendt. The EWZ files are so fascinating, wish I could just do full time research there instead of my accounting job! beste Gr??e, Kurt Gillies Pembroke, NH USA -----Original Message----- From: Karl Krueger To: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org; Leo Sonnenberg Sent: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 9:25 am Subject: Re: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships Leo, thers have already explained the relationships you were wondering about. Your ther question about how often does this kind of thing happen was not answered hough. The answer to that question is this happens very often among the German ommunities throughout this area. Think of? having a restricted population of undreds to maybe a couple thousand people from which you can choose your pouse. In the first generation it is easy to find an unrelated person to marry. ut with each subsequent generation it will be more difficulat to find someone ompletely unrelated to you. It will only take a few generations before you find he majority of the population interelated to each other. I have noticed this henomenon studying EWZ records where my parents/grandparents came from. I found o many interrelationships betweens different branches of my distant relatives hat my family was never aware before I started building this database. Most eople I know now through SGGEE whose ancestors came from the Lublin area are either related to e (2nd-5th cousins) or are related to others of my relatives (1st or 2nd ousins). econdly,?two other?drivers for marrying was who your family knew and economic ressures to retain ownership of farm land. These factors tended to?encourage arrying someone related to you. Cousins marrying each other was not uncommon. n rare instances marrying an uncle/aunt or even step daughter have been found. hey were not aware of the benefit of genetic diversity or the dangers of voiding it. In our society we have a better understanding of the genetic mplications and thus we avoid marrying relatives. arl --- On Wed, 10/1/08, Leo Sonnenberg wrote: From: Leo Sonnenberg ubject: [Ger-Poland-Volhynia] Figuring Relationships o: ger-poland-volhynia at eclipse.sggee.org ate: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 10:15 PM I recently received a list of ancestors on my father's side back to 1790 rom a cousin in Germany. I was surprised to see that my grandfather on y mother's side was also on the list. y mother is a great granddaughter to the common ancestor and my father s a great great grandson to the common ancestor. I am both a great reat grandson through my mother and a great great great grandson hrough my father. My questions are - A. what cousins are my parents to each other and B. hat am I to my distant grandfather? How would I classify myself - a wo great grandson or a three great grandson? So who am I? Also, does this situation occur very often? Any definition of my relationship to my distant grandfather is welcome including any jokes). Leo Sonnenberg ______________________________________________ er-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by ociety for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org ailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv _______________________________________________ er-Poland-Volhynia Mailing List hosted by ociety for German Genealogy in Eastern Europe http://www.sggee.org ailing list info at http://www.sggee.org/listserv